| War on Extremism Forum to discuss Pakistan's war against terrorism and extremism. |
 |
|
03-27-2010, 06:14 PM
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Administrator
Lt. General
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 8,958
Thanks: 518
Thanked 448 Times in 372 Posts
|
Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Wednesday March 24, 2010
The puppets are puppets and the human beings are human beings. No puppet can replace a man and so is it in the case of any ruler, may that be the president of Afghanistan. Almost 168 years back, during the first Anglo-Afghan war, the British after contriving the over throw of Amir Dost Mohammad Khan who surrendered to the British after some resistance, and was deported to India; Shah Shuja was installed as a "puppet king" by them. Ironically the puppet was killed by the Afghans within months and they continued their struggle for freedom under the leadership of Akbar Khan who later emerged as a hero, whom they remember and respect even today. The interesting thing is that the dare devil Afghans made the British lick the dust in a way that in January 1842, out of 16,500 soldiers and 12,000 dependents only a solitary survivor, of mixed British-Indian garrison, was allowed by the Afghan warriors to reach back to Jalalabad Fort, on a stumbling pony.
This bitter truth was repeatedly being reminded to the adventurous Americans ever since the day they landed in Afghanistan but the stubborn Bush junior associated by a red neck squad didn’t pay any heed to it. The good thing about the European and categorically the British is that they believe in learning from the history while in the case of (a number of) Americans, unfortunately they qualify the quote that, “The lesson learnt from the history is that we didn’t learn anything”. The Vietnam and the Iraq war are the classic examples of it.
With the swearing in of president Obama as a new hope for the world peace the world quite rightly expected him to undo the bloopers credited to George W. Bush. Though it was quite difficult for the Obama Team to wrap up the misdoings of Bush clan, however the new occupants of the White House did show some positive signs and among those one was to honour the advise repeatedly given to the Americans by the world generally and the Pakistanis categorically to thin out from Afghanistan before it was too late for them.
It is very unfortunate that Pakistan who dedicatedly fought the GWOT right in the face of it was never appreciated for its noteworthy contribution and great sacrifices in terms of human life, collateral damage and economic losses during the last eight years, as a frontline state. It is a globally known fact that Pakistan’s economy suffered huge losses, as much as $68 billion in terms of exports, foreign investment, privatization and industrial production, due to turmoil in Afghanistan. Even now, Pakistan’s national economy is exclusively suffering a net loss of $7 billion annually as fallout of the war against terror, which has displaced thousands of people.
On the other hand it would be highly unfair and unjust if Pakistan’s fervent and whole hearted role as the only force standing in front of the terrorism is doubted. Agreed that the Americans are fighting a war (right or wrong) in Afghanistan but that’s a pitched battle against an enemy while Pakistan is the only country who is facing the music of terrorism all by itself. No one can deny the sacrifices mentioned by the Pakistan army’s Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, a month back while talking to media. He informed media that roughly well over two thousand Pakistani army officers and soldiers had been killed in the fighting by that date which included one three-star General, two two-star generals and five brigadiers as the martyrs.
Pakistan who would never take a chance to take its eyes off from the Eastern borders, pulled out an alarming number of troops, for reposting them on the western frontiers to enhance the strength along the Afghan border, as much as a total of 140,000 or little more Pakistani troops vis-à-vis 70,000 NATO & US troops. Saying is much easier than comprehending but those heartless Western quarters who blame Pakistan for playing a ‘Double Game’ must find some reason for the young dedicated and die hard Pakistani soldiers who embraced martyrdom without even thinking for a minute about those infants or spouses in their teens whom they left behind before laying their lives to make this restive world more peaceful. Those American think tanks having notorious Indian and Zionist characters in their ranks and files must find some reason, for those more or less seventy-three intelligence officers to embrace martyrdom, before blaming Pakistan’s spy agencies to play a double game. But, tragically, despite these all sacrifices, what Pakistan is bagging quite off and on, in return is merely a total humiliation, trauma and degradation in the name of homeland security and of course a constant chanting of slogan ‘Do More’, an illogical, baseless and unethical demand by the mesmerised western quarters under the Indian and Zionist influence.
Pleasantly, the things are quite changed now, contrary to March 2000 when the then US president Bill Clinton touched down at Islamabad merely for few hours to admonish Pakistan and to ignore the arrogant Gen Musharraf. Now, exactly ten years later Pakistan is being expected at a place where it should have been accepted long time back. The strategic dialogues are commencing on March 24, 2010 and for the first time it appears that the suffered Americans seriously means business which would not be possible without sidelining the Indian and Zionist lobbies who desperately desire to incapacitate these sincere and serious dialogues meant for a peaceful and Us friendly Afghanistan. The Indian interest is quite obvious as they dream to lick the lollypop under the American umbrella which they are afraid that will be snatched (obviously) from them in case the eager Americans say goodbye to the rugged land.
Honestly speaking for the first time it looks that the Americans are seriously looking for a clean and honourable disengagement which will not be possible if the main characters are bypassed as the smart Afghan president Karzai is attempting to do. Pakistan, as repeatedly said, has a role to play in Afghanistan whereas the Indians have only one thing to do and that is to pack up and go back home, hence the moral of the story is that the training of Afghan troops by the Indians will not be acceptable to Pakistan at any cost.
It is strongly hoped that the Pakistani grievances are going to be seriously addressed and accommodated. If the Americans genuinely desire a long lasting peace in Afghanistan then they must do the following; first, hold and hand-cuff those ‘hands’ who are adding fuel to the fire in FATA, Waziristan and Swat (believe me it would be very convenient for them to do). It should also be remembered that neither Pakistan nor America can afford any further adventure if the latter is seriously planning to withdraw its troops for good from Afghanistan. Amidst this all there is a dire need to be put an end to the Indian covert operations against Pakistan from the Afghan soil.
Secondly, the water theft by the Indian should not be taken lightly. The Americans should not be taken aback if any near future war between these two arch rivals is fought on the water issue as the Indians are shamelessly holding the water of those three rivers allocated to Pakistan through Indus Basin Water treaty. It amounts to strangulating Pakistan’s lifeline and no one can tolerate this nonsense for an indefinite period. In the current scenario when the possibilities of any future wars are foreseen on the water issue, how could an Indo-Pakistan battle for the same reason be an exception? So, the moral of the story is that Ms. Hilary Clinton will have to play a positive role, instead of showing some inability in this regard, provided Americans seriously need some great favours from Pakistan.
|
|
|
03-27-2010, 06:14 PM
|
#2 (permalink)
|
|
Administrator
Lt. General
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 8,958
Thanks: 518
Thanked 448 Times in 372 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Thirdly, if the US leadership earnestly desires to establish some long term and objective strategic relations with Pakistan and have a long to leave behind a friendly Afghanistan then the US government should refrain from offering peanuts to Pakistan. When you throw peanuts you only get monkeys and not friends. After all what else the $1.3 Billion per year of economic aid be termed if not peanuts if it is compared with the one given to Israel ($ 60 Billion), Egypt ($ 30 Billion) and Turkey during the first Iraq war ($48 Billion)?
And last but not the least is the Kashmir issue, the mother of all disputes between these two countries. If the Indians sincerely desire the peace in the Subcontinent then they must discontinue the reign of terror against ill fated and unarmed Kashmiris for which the Indian security forces in Indian Held Kashmir are globally held responsible. The massive human rights violation should be brought to the notice of US leaders and they must be cautioned that not treating the Kashmir issue as a Flash Point will not only be unfair but precarious as well.
As stated by Jeff Gates through his articles published in www.opinion-maker.org once again the US is direly in need of Pakistan and the latter as a sincere friend would not hesitate showing them to the door. However, the Americans should not forget at any point that Pakistan has a geographical, religious, cultural and inherited role to play in Afghanistan which no one can deny. They must remember one more thing that despite their impish efforts to name the terrorists in Pakistan as TTP (Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan), no harm could be done to the genuine Taliban of Afghanistan. They are sane and sons of the soil and without involving them in any parleys peace in Afghanistan can never prevail or prosper and that should be the crux of the current strategic dialogues between Pakistan and the USA are concerned. After all, the Americans would not be very pleased to see Gen. McChrystal coming home back as a solitary survivor.
Pakistan has delivered more than expected from her as a war ally and above all as a ‘friend’ and it’s high time for the US to remember that there will be No More ‘Do More’. After all the puppets are puppets and the human beings are human beings.
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?225789
|
|
|
|
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Neo For This Useful Post:
|
|
03-28-2010, 01:59 AM
|
#3 (permalink)
|
|
PSR Analyst
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bay area No Calif
Posts: 201
Thanks: 174
Thanked 89 Times in 59 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Hi,
Actually pak millitary has thrown down a challenge at the american millitary and shown them how to do things the right way. They have basically thrown the gauntlet and are waiting to see what the americans are upto.
Incidently, the americans have been so far out classed and out foxed in afghanistan by the afghans. I agree that americans have the fire power and can kill as many muslims as they want to in afg , but their management of the country requires a lot to be answered.
Here are the americans who cannot move out of their bases without air cover---they can't moved their freight without paying the bribes to the taliban and their cohorts. Independant warlords also charge for the right of safe passage. Things are basically terrible for the american army.
The war itself has lingered on for too long---american soldiers are tired and faitgued. They are extremely frustrated at not knwoing what to do, for how long they are going to keep doing what they are doing and if, any what would be the end results.
The U S millitary is lucky that there is a reccession at home, and some of the soldiers are happy with the job and benefits, but if there had been no reccession, things would have been different.
In the last year and half, the americans have realized that the pak democratic govt cannot deliver much without the consent of the millitary.
A nuclear reactor deal would be the true LITMUS TEST for american sincerety and committment towards pakistan.
__________________
THE FACE OF EVIL IS EXTREMELY ORDINARY
|
|
|
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mastankhan For This Useful Post:
|
|
03-28-2010, 04:33 AM
|
#4 (permalink)
|
|
Senior Member
Major General
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,277
Thanks: 85
Thanked 92 Times in 73 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Quote:
|
Thirdly, if the US leadership earnestly desires to establish some long term and objective strategic relations with Pakistan and have a long to leave behind a friendly Afghanistan then the US government should refrain from offering peanuts to Pakistan. When you throw peanuts you only get monkeys and not friends. After all what else the $1.3 Billion per year of economic aid be termed if not peanuts if it is compared with the one given to Israel ($ 60 Billion), Egypt ($ 30 Billion) and Turkey during the first Iraq war ($48 Billion)?
|
This seems to sum up the Pakistani side. Since when is begging and giving a sign of friendship!
If all you want is to beg and get, you will not be considered a friend, just a nuisance. Plain and simple.
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
जननी जन्मभूमि च स्वर्गात अपि गरीयसी (The mother and motherland are greater than heaven)
|
|
|
03-28-2010, 04:40 AM
|
#5 (permalink)
|
|
Senior Member
Major General
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,277
Thanks: 85
Thanked 92 Times in 73 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
What does the "all weather" friend give? Not peanuts?
Or no expectations from the all weather friends at all and all from the one who is most viciously hated on the Pakistani street and the death of whose soldiers celebrated by Pakistanis on the forums!
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
जननी जन्मभूमि च स्वर्गात अपि गरीयसी (The mother and motherland are greater than heaven)
|
|
|
03-28-2010, 08:15 AM
|
#6 (permalink)
|
|
Senior Member
Major General
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,277
Thanks: 85
Thanked 92 Times in 73 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Here is an article that is closer to the truth rather than useless chest thumping that impresses none except domestic audiences.
Show me the money!

From the American perspective, it must be galling to see so much anti-American sentiment in a country in which they have sunk so much money over the years. –Photo by AP
If you think about it, much of the money that has built small pockets of affluence across Pakistan has its origins overseas. Ranging from heroin to exported workers, and from cash skimmed off arms deals to diverted aid, many fortunes in Pakistan rest on illegal foundations.
This is why the Pakistani ruling elites are forever on the prowl for new cash cows abroad. The United States, being the richest country in the world, is an obvious target. Luckily for us, American interests in the region bring this particular cow to the milking shed at regular intervals. And when, as happened after the American cow wandered off for a while when the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, our rulers went into a terminal sulk with our perennial benefactors.
According to the theory of the rentier state, when a country derives most of its funds from abroad, it becomes disconnected from the wider society, and tends to become autocratic. This model is generally applied to oil-rich states in the Middle East and Africa to explain why the people of many of these countries remain so poor despite their immense oil reserves.
While Pakistan does not possess much oil, its location has given it leverage in the West that its rulers have exploited skilfully over the years. During the Cold War between the US and the USSR, it was accorded frontline status, and signed up to a number of anti-communist alliances. These pacts swelled our arsenals as well as the self-esteem of our generals. But after decades of being on the frontline and receiving billions of dollars worth of aid, there is little to show for it in terms of enhanced security or prosperity.
One problem with the rentier state is that it does not need to have an effective tax system to generate funds to sustain its rulers. Nor does it have to internalise and inculcate the virtues of hard work. True, the masses have to sweat just to keep body and soul together, but the state does not feel the need to provide a decent education or healthcare to its citizens. After all, the rulers send their children to private schools, and have private hospitals to tend to their maladies.
In this warped socio-economic scenario, the role model is the feudal who lives off the labour of his wretched haris. In a sense, Pakistan is an extended jagir where landlords and warlords live well while the vast majority scramble to achieve a hand-to mouth existence.
One reason the Kerry-Lugar Act has provoked so much opposition among the ruling elites is that it threatens to subvert a system that has worked well for them for so many years. By trying to get money directly to neglected areas like education and health, and bypassing sticky official fingers as well as the international consultancy mafia, the Americans have made many privileged Pakistanis nervous. For all their lofty talk about sovereignty and national honour, the bottom line is always about money, and who gets it.
Access to scarce resources reveals a lot about power and its distribution. In Pakistan, the military has traditionally devoured the bulk of our budgetary allocations, and the fact that military spending remains opaque, and those responsible largely unaccountable to parliament, says a lot about who’s in charge. This fact of life was hammered home by Gen Kayani’s prominent role in the current ‘strategic dialogue’ between the United States and Pakistan. He went along to make sure the military got its rightful share of the goodies about to flow from Washington.
In an incisive article about US aid, Mosharraf Zaidi wrote recently in a newspaper that the Pakistani wish-list carried by our team included power projects worth $647m. In the pipeline are F-16s worth $720m. As a Pakistani, he said he’d much rather have the former, and so would I. However, as a betting man, I think the chances of getting the jet fighters are far higher.
From the American perspective, it must be galling to see so much anti-American sentiment in a country in which they have sunk so much money over the years. However, they must realise that the public does not get to see the military hardware that has formed the bulk of their assistance. What matters is how aid touches the lives of ordinary people, and in our case, the answer is very little.
Another problem with this high volume of arms assistance is that it allows policy planners to adopt stances that would not be sustainable had they needed to find the resources internally. Grandiose dreams of ‘strategic depth’, and of flying the Pakistani flag over Delhi would have seen those who talked about them being frog-marched to the loony bin. Presently, however, they are given slots on TV.
There has been much talk in Washington recently about how our relationship will be transformed into a partnership. But a partnership implies equality, and the question to ask is what are we doing for America? True, we are fighting an enemy that often attacks Nato troops across the border in Afghanistan. But this is a war we must fight and win for our own survival, irrespective of American aid, or the presence of US troops in Afghanistan.
Years ago, a friend told me about a business trip to China where he had a meeting with an official. After the initial pleasantries, the bureaucrat said to the Pakistani businessman: “I’d like to be your friend.” Congratulating himself for the swift progress he had made in breaking the ice, my friend eagerly echoed the sentiment. “Ah,” said the Chinese official sadly, pointing at the ceiling. “But you are up there financially, and I’m down here. We can only be friends if you can raise me to your level so I can be your equal.”
As a demand for a bribe, I have seldom heard of a more elegantly phrased one. And while the Pakistani people cannot dream of being elevated to the high levels of American affluence, that is certainly the aspiration of our elites.
I remember a popular sign painted behind trucks and taxis in the 1990s: ‘Dalar ki talaash’ (‘searching for dollars’). Perhaps this can be our national slogan.
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
जननी जन्मभूमि च स्वर्गात अपि गरीयसी (The mother and motherland are greater than heaven)
|
|
|
03-28-2010, 08:18 AM
|
#7 (permalink)
|
|
Senior Member
Major General
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,277
Thanks: 85
Thanked 92 Times in 73 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
A realistic article. You can't behave like a beggar and expect to be treated as a friend at the same time.
Pakistanis with their 56 page begging list and trying to extort all they can (while they think the USA needs them) are not behaving as friends. Any expectation that the other side will behave more morally than them is typical but unlikely to fructify.
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
जननी जन्मभूमि च स्वर्गात अपि गरीयसी (The mother and motherland are greater than heaven)
|
|
|
03-28-2010, 09:06 AM
|
#8 (permalink)
|
|
Administrator
Lt. Colonel
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 930
Thanks: 34
Thanked 50 Times in 30 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod2070
A realistic article. You can't behave like a beggar and expect to be treated as a friend at the same time.
Pakistanis with their 56 page begging list and trying to extort all they can (while they think the USA needs them) are not behaving as friends. Any expectation that the other side will behave more morally than them is typical but unlikely to fructify.
|
When Bharat asks and gets humanitarian aid and assistance from Western countries, is that also classified as begging?
Pakistan and USA are allies in the war against violent extremism, while the Americans use Pakistani ports, transport networks, airports for their ongoing war in Afghanistan. It is not begging if the US reimburses Pakistan for the cost it has incurred due to the use of it's logistical services, and deployment of its troops to support the US war effort in Afghanistan.
Israel is the biggest recipient of US aid at the moment, so would you call Israel a beggar whenever it's officials go to the US with their yearly demands?
Pakistan has asked only for money pertaining to US use of pakistani logistical services and costs incurred in the war, otherwise we have asked for more trade access, investment in our energy sector, a civilian nuclear deal, mediation in the kashmir dispute, and for our concerns about Bharati involvement in Baluchistan and Afghanistan to be met.
If all of the above is begging, then yes we are beggars.
|
|
|
|
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DarkStar For This Useful Post:
|
|
03-28-2010, 09:29 AM
|
#9 (permalink)
|
|
Senior Member
Major General
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,277
Thanks: 85
Thanked 92 Times in 73 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
When Bharat asks and gets humanitarian aid and assistance from Western countries, is that also classified as begging?
|
I don't remember our foreign minister or army chief preparing lists like these and going abegging when having a "strategic dialog"!
Here it is not humanitarian aid for use by NGOs. Indian government receives little or no aid AFAIK.
Let's not try to mislead, if not for anything else then because it won't work.
Quote:
Pakistan and USA are allies in the war against violent extremism, while the Americans use Pakistani ports, transport networks, airports for their ongoing war in Afghanistan. It is not begging if the US reimburses Pakistan for the cost it has incurred due to the use of it's logistical services, and deployment of its troops to support the US war effort in Afghanistan.
Israel is the biggest recipient of US aid at the moment, so would you call Israel a beggar whenever it's officials go to the US with their yearly demands?
Pakistan has asked only for money pertaining to US use of pakistani logistical services and costs incurred in the war, otherwise we have asked for more trade access, investment in our energy sector, a civilian nuclear deal, mediation in the kashmir dispute, and for our concerns about Bharati involvement in Baluchistan and Afghanistan to be met.
If all of the above is begging, then yes we are beggars.
|
I can again see it as nothing but trying to mislead or save some H&D. It is not for logistics and you know that as well as I do. Though you always try to put this spin.
Regarding deployment of your troops to support the US war effort in Afghanistan, do you think they are fighting USA's war?
If yes, you understand what it makes PA? If it is your war, why expect others to pay for that? Irfan Husain makes the same point.
What kind of allies you are is known to everyone. The vast majority of Pakistanis hate the USA.
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
जननी जन्मभूमि च स्वर्गात अपि गरीयसी (The mother and motherland are greater than heaven)
Last edited by vinod2070; 03-28-2010 at 09:50 AM.
|
|
|
03-28-2010, 09:52 AM
|
#10 (permalink)
|
|
Administrator
Lt. Colonel
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 930
Thanks: 34
Thanked 50 Times in 30 Posts
|
Re: Pakistan: No More "Do More"
Do you seriously want me to trawl the internet to find out the exact figures of international Aid, assitance and grants to Bharat?
Only the UK announced almost a Billion dollars of aid in three years for Bharat a couple of years ago. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...er-development
Bhrat has been the biggest recipient of USAid money over the past 50 years, and continues to benefit to this day.
Are you trying to suggest that all these countries gave Bharat money, without Bharat asking for it? Or was it the result of begging and emotional blackmail by keeping the majority of the population destitute, and showing pictures of starving low caste Bharatias to leverage compassion?
The economic impact on the Pakistan economy from the war in Afghanistan alone is estimate at 50-60 Billion dollars, so whatever monies the Americans give for the help that Pakistan is giving them in their war is not even remotely enough to cover the sacrifices that our developing nation is making.
recently nirupama Rao also went to the US with a list of demands that were'nt met, so was she also there a-begging?
|
|
|
|
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DarkStar For This Useful Post:
|
|
 |
|
| Thread Tools |
|
|
| Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:28 AM.
|