BREAKING NEWS: Attack in Rawalpindi !!! UPDATED - Operation Janbaz Successful

[wtf]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

So Gen. Kyani, should have acted like the Bharati top brass, who were nowhere to be seen at the mumbai attacks (except for the brave, honest anti hindutva karkare, who was killed), acting like ostriches with their head in the sand.

I respect Kyani for going there, and I'm sure the common sepoy would have felt the same. It is actions such as these which have helped the morale of Pakistani troops, who are not going on killing sprees of their comrades, or committing suicide on an industrial scale like the Bharati forces in Kashmir.

I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.
-Gen Patton.

[vinod2070]

YouTube

YouTube

[Kasrkin]

But 200 of them surrender to 20 Taliban teenagers! There is not a single case in India so far.

20 'teenagers'? They were actually many hundreds of them all over the mountains according to the prisoners and gunship pilots who had gone to observe at the time. And how do you know they were 'teenagers'? Were you there to interview them and check their birth certificates? With a whole generation of armed tribesmen available why would BM send 'teenagers' for such an important mission.

The industrial scale has been seen in the biggest genocide after WW-2 and the use of weapons of war within Pakistan on "their own" people, unlike India which has never done so.

Again with the 'biggest genocide' tripe with not a shred of neutral references to back it up.

It was unnecessary to bring India here. India does not consider Pakistan as a standard to measure against, you better not do that as well.

Yes we can see that. Understand the point made on its merit, morale is a serious issue with the Indian armed forces of late. Whereas the same observers comment that the PA has good morale these days. Like I've asked you before, try to avoid these knee-jerk reactions where you spill nonsense you call 'knowledge' about Pakistan on to our thread every time you don't like what is being said about India.

[Neo]

Interpreting the GHQ attack

The Saturday attack on the General Headquarters (GHQ) in Rawalpindi martyred a number of military personnel including a Brigadier and Lieutenant-Colonel. The army reacted swiftly, killing four of the terrorists and locating their safe house in a nearby suburban settlement. While this was going on, five terrorists managed to get into a security building and held hostage more than 40 personnel including civilians. The operation, launched in two phases got all the hostages released except three who got killed; four terrorists were killed while their leader was arrested. The attacking force lost four personnel.

Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) claimed the act and named the “group” that had undertaken it: Amjad Farooqi Group. A member of the group reportedly demanded that the government stop the military operation in the Tribal Areas, hold former General Pervez Musharraf accountable for his actions, force Blackwater US private security firm to leave the country; shut down all western non-governmental organisations (NGOs), and release detained Taliban. Al Qaeda had earlier named the killers of khassadars in Khyber after its founder, Abdullah Azzam.

Amjad Farooqi was a terrorist affiliated with Al Qaeda through Sipah-e-Sahaba and Jaish-e-Muhammad. He was involved in the attempt on the life of General Musharraf, the beheading of the American journalist Daniel Pearl, and the bombing of a church in Islamabad. He was killed in 2004 in Sindh. The Al Qaeda link was disclosed after his death. His handler was the Libyan Abu Faraj al-Libi, who had replaced the planner of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, as Al Qaeda commander in Pakistan, after the latter’s arrest.

Punjab had warned of the impending attack on the GHQ as early as July 15 this year, and had named Lashkar-Jhangvi and Jaish-e-Muhammad whose terrorists “would be dressed in military uniforms” and would be carrying specific weapons. Again, it was South Punjab which was in focus and, against all assertions to the contrary, this time counter-intelligence was clearly effective against the terrorists. How else can one judge counter-intelligence if not from this forewarning that even named the outfits? If this tip-off was ignored, it can only mean that there is “denial” somewhere of there being terrorist trouble in South Punjab.

Most attacks in and around Islamabad, including the one on Marriott Hotel, have been traced to South Punjab. Today, in the so-called Seraiki Belt, no one dare speak against the erstwhile jihadi organisation now clearly aligned with Al Qaeda. The government stance is that the leader of Jaish-e-Muhammad, Maulana Masood Azhar, is not to be found, but the foreign press has reported his presence in Bahawalpur with new training facilities for his terrorists in the nearby desert.

Interior Minister Rehman Malik says the deed is done by terrorists aligned with Al Qaeda, but he also adds some other connections that introduce breaches of logic that only he can understand. He says the terrorists are working for their foreign masters against the integrity of Pakistan. “Foreign masters” have been named by others as India and the US. Unless explained more fully, this means that India and the US are paying Al Qaeda — which Mr Malik says runs the TTP — to wreck Pakistan.

The US is keen that Pakistan help it catch Osama bin Laden and destroy the safe havens of Al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It is simply not logical that it should fund Al Qaeda to destroy Pakistan. India has been hit by the “minions” of Al Qaeda and is challenging Pakistan to take action against certain organisations the Punjab CID has named in connection with the latest GHQ hit. Many TV commentators angrily assert that a reference to them in the Kerry-Lugar Bill was inserted by the Indian lobby in Washington.

An entire international community that includes the US, India and China, wants Pakistan to take the battle to the “GHQ of the Taliban” in South Waziristan. The Pakistan army has blockaded the area and made initial moves to open the way for a ground assault. This attack, from what it appears, is likely to hasten the process and we should expect the forces to start moving on the ground by the end of this month. In any case, the army knows that as winter approaches, the operation may well be delayed beyond March-April in 2010 and that could give the other side time to reorganise and consolidate.

The NWFP government wants the attack on South Waziristan to proceed and wants Punjab to clear its southern region of old jihadis now aligned with Al Qaeda terrorists. Clearing South Punjab is important because at this stage it does not require more than local police intelligence and a combined police and paramilitary operation against specific targets. As for how effective local intelligence can be is clear from the forewarning about the attack that did materialise.

[ferrari]

So, with the coming to light of the involvement of ex-military officials in these attacks, how safe are Nuclear weapons from Taliban.

[Xeric]

Originally Posted by wtf

An unrelated question. Why does Keyani travel in a Merc? Other than the fact that it is ostentatious for an Army man to have a "Dictator Mobile" it also raises the question of security. If there is only one Merc in a motorcade, an you were a terrorist, you know which vehicle to target. The picture even shows the face of the driver of the Merc, so if you wanted to be sure, all you have to do is to find the guy and ask him if Keyani travels in the Merc.
Even more annoying is the fact that Keyani travelled to the Attack site. If the GHQ attack had been set up as a diversion, and Keyani went there to inspect, he would be letting the terrorists chose the location of attack on him and also let them mark him out.

Imagine if today there was a terrorist waiting by the roadside with a rocket launcher ?

Compare this with the President of India . Lots of Ambassador cars, ( I counted 53, before the video ends) good luck figuring out which one has the President in it. And the President never visits a site of danger.
YouTube - President Of India's Family visit to Pune

Well atleast, in this case, our President is not behind you:

YouTube - Zardari's Protocol

YouTube - Zardari's Protocol

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Kasrkin

20 'teenagers'? They were actually many hundreds of them all over the mountains according to the prisoners and gunship pilots who had gone to observe at the time. And how do you know they were 'teenagers'? Were you there to interview them and check their birth certificates? With a whole generation of armed tribesmen available why would BM send 'teenagers' for such an important mission.

OK. I wrote that based on some articles that I read at the time. If the number is not correct and there is a neutral source for that, I will stand corrected.

I think I have seen some ghastly videos too where some teenagers were slitting the throats of soldiers and all of them were chanting as if in a trance. Not sure if they were the same guys who captured the soldiers too.

Anyway, the fact remains that 200 soldiers surrendering without a fight to a militia is pretty significant and almost unprecedented. It seems that they surrendered not because of hopeless odds but because they didn't want to fight Muslims!

The released soldiers said to the reporters that they were told that “some “Non Muslim fighters” were there and we had to fight with them”. “However, when we realized that they were Muslims and wanted to implement Shariah, we decided to surrender and not to fight with our Muslim brothers.”

DailyMuslims - Pakistani Soldiers Surrender to Taliban, 48 Released Soldiers Confirm

Now I personally would prefer to see it as a motivatonal challenge for the PA and it seems that they were able to overcome the challenge successfully, at least significantly if not completely.

This whole thing was more of a retort , not something I would like to dwell too much on unless pressed.

Again with the 'biggest genocide' tripe with not a shred of neutral references to back it up.

You leave me confused.

You asked me for neutral references on our forum too. I created a thread specificaly to discuss that and linked that to your reply.

You never came back!

Now you again say that you need a neutral reference. How about these?

1984 World Almanac: up to 1,000,000 civilians were killed.
Hartman: 1,000,000 Bengalis
B&J: 1,000,000 Bengalis
Kuper cites a study by Chaudhuri which counted 1,247,000 dead, and mentions the possibility that it may be as many as 3,000,000.
MEDIAN: 1,000,000-1,250,000
Porter: 1M-2M
Rummel: 1,500,000.
Eckhardt: 1,000,000 civ. + 500,000 mil. = 1,500,000 (Bangladesh)
Harff & Gurr: 1,250,000 to 3,000,000
The official estimate in Bangladesh is 3 million dead. [AP 30 Dec. 2000; Agence France Presse 3 Oct. 2000;
Rounaq Johan: 3,000,000 (in Century of Genocide: Eyewitness Accounts and Critical Views, Samuel Totten, ed., (1997))
Compton's Encyclopedia, "Genocide": 3,000,000
Encyclopedia Americana (2003), "Bangladesh": 3,000,000

This was posted by a Bangladeshi member on your forum too. If you need to discuss this further, feel free to create a separate thread.

Yes we can see that. Understand the point made on its merit, morale is a serious issue with the Indian armed forces of late. Whereas the same observers comment that the PA has good morale these days. Like I've asked you before, try to avoid these knee-jerk reactions where you spill nonsense you call 'knowledge' about Pakistan on to our thread every time you don't like what is being said about India.

OK. Agreed that IA has had issues related to morale at times, suicide cases, fraternal shootings etc.

Those who would see can see that it was after years of tough counter insurgency duty. This is hardly unprecedented. US army has those issues too and as professional organizations the army tries to deal with the challenge the best they can.

If the recent absence of news on this front is a pointer, the issue is under control now. The main issue is whether this effects the IA's ability to face the challenges that confront them. I would think that is not the case. The militancy is at an all time low and that shows that the army can deal with the internal and external challenges and is a living and leaning organization.

We have gone through this before and I said that the absence of any news from PA does not necessarily mean that there are no motivation challenges facing them. There must be and as professional organization, they would be dealing with them. I don't see why anyone needs to be overly concerned or happy looking at the challenges facing an organization when the organization can deal with them and come out trumps!

Frankly i have seen many articles by neutral writers that say that PA will face a major challenge when they enter FATA or Waziristan. There could be ethnic and religious issues at play and PA would need to be at it's best to overcome those challenges. There could be cases of desertions etc. I would think that these should be seen as challenges for a professional organization rather than something to be happy about by others!

[vinod2070]

Militant leader who led attack on Pakistan Army base is one of many defectors


Militant leader who led attack on Pakistan Army base is one of many defectors - Times Online

The leader of the attack on the Pakistani Army’s headquarters is one of several former military officers and soldiers to have joined Islamic militant groups.

Earlier this year police arrested Major Haroon Rashid who, they said, worked for al-Qaeda and the Pakistani Taleban and was involved in the murder of a retired general who led special forces against the militants.

His younger brother, a captain, went to Afghanistan to fight alongside the Afghan Taleban after leaving the army in 2002. He was killed fighting British Forces in Helmand in 2002.

Ilyas Khashmiri, a retired army commando, was one of the most dreaded militant commanders until he was killed in a drone strike on North Waziristan last month. Intelligence sources say many other former soldiers are either fighting foreign forces in Afghanistan or helping militants in northwestern Pakistan.

At least six army officers — including some of the ranks of colonel and major — were arrested a few years ago for their alleged links with al-Qaeda and other militant groups.

This again shows what I referred to above. A much bigger challenge for PA.

[Xeric]

Anyway, the fact remains that 200 soldiers surrendering without a fight to a militia is pretty significant and almost unprecedented. It seems that they surrendered not because of hopeless odds but because they didn't want to fight Muslims!

You really are naiver than i thought, seriously.

[vinod2070]

Thx. for the great insight.