PakistanTalk Forum

Zaki · 03-25-2010, 03:32 PM

Pakistan is in discussions with China and France to acquire seven latest conventional submarines. — File Photo

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Navy is in discussions with China and France to acquire seven latest conventional submarines, negotiations with Germany to purchase three U-214 is also on cards.

Chinese version offers economical price of around $230 million for each boat.

To negotiate with French DCN Company for Marline Submarines, a high level naval delegation will visit France on April 27.

Reliable sources from Pakistan Navy told DawnNews that after three years of continuous negotiations with Germany PN has decided to avail some other options as well for acquiring next-generation submarines.

Sources maintained that Islamabad is deeply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional versions in a bid to meet any challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy.

Initially German company HDW had drawn up technical specifications for three U-214 boats and a billion dollars contract also intact and was almost final.—DawnNews

Mastankhan · 03-26-2010, 12:06 AM

Hi,

There we go again. Navy is in deep---. Chinese subs are no match for the german and the french.

I would rather have one german sub than three chinese subs---they are that much better in quality.

Mastankhan · 03-26-2010, 12:49 AM

I couldnot edit the post, so I will carry on here.

Under sea warfare is a totally different game---there is nothing that compares it to on the surface.

Undersea warfare is purely and solely based on the quality of your equipment, the technology used in it and your weapons system. It is already taken for granted that the crew is very well versed with their equipment. So, it will not be the issue of man behind the machine---the man is capable on both the side---the ultimate breahker will be the machine.

You see, unlike the open skies, in the deep, it is purely on the basis of superior equipment, that you can over power your enemy.

Going for the chinese subs is a very poor decision indeed. Thwew german U 214 rule in the silent sub category---their tech is eons ahead of the chinese. The chinese won't get there in the next 10---15 years.

Basically two thumbs down for chinese subs---for now.

Zaki · 03-26-2010, 08:55 AM

Oh well i was wondering Mastan Jee

1) there has been no official statements for the German subs as of yet so there is still a Hope and also we are not sure if the Germans are not willing to sell it anymore or what the real cause of this problem is?

2) We are also buying French subs along with Chinese so it is also increasing the number of Subs + quality in our inventory

3) We are not sure how much Transfer of Technology chinese are willing to provide? who knows if they willing to provide ToT like the deals we finalized with them in past i.e. Al-Khalid, JF-17s and F-22p? and who knows if not superior but our Navy's ultimate goal is to absorb the level of technology the chinese are offering?

4) Its Zardari's regime anything is possible

The bottom line is we still have to wait for an official statement and 7 New subs is a very surprising news for me

Zaki · 03-26-2010, 08:58 AM

Pak Navy to acquire seven submarines to meet challenges posed by India

The Pakistan Navy is likely to acquire seven 'conventional' submarines and is in discussions with China and France for finalising the deal.

According to sources, negotiations are also on with Germany to purchase three U-214 type submarines.

Sources within the Pakistan Navy said that a high level naval delegation would be visiting France next week to finalise the deal with French DCN Company for Marline submarines.

Islamabad is deeply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional submarines in a bid to meet the challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, The Dawn quoted sources, as saying.

It is pertinent to mention here that a German company-HDW had drawn up technical specifications for three U-214 submarines, and a billion dollar contract was almost fi
nalised, but the deal could not materialise due to some unknown reasons. (ANI)

-----------------------------

Looks like we are planning to buy

4x Chinese Subs
3x French
3x German

10 Submarines in total

But where is the money?

Araz · 03-26-2010, 12:23 PM

I think there are problems for the german platform.It is partly PN's fault as well.The y have procastrinated ad nauseum to the extent that the germans ave had an opportunity to wriggle out of the contract. The other thing to consider what influence our good old Mr10% have had on the deal. I remember a long time back on defence PK there was a chap called Jleu who indicated that the germans were very arrogant in the way they had dealt with PN, and PN may go down the french way after all.
The chinese deal has been hinted at, and mastan, I dont think it is that bad a deal. We have resource restraints as well as our future plans involve a healthy dose of tech transfer.From that point of view, this is not a bad deal.The subs will have a healthy component of skills transferred over from various projects, maybe the turks may get involved as well.
The french deal does not make sense at all.To buy a paper sub would be sheer lunacy. We have to wait and see.
Araz

Neo · 03-26-2010, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastankhan

I couldnot edit the post, so I will carry on here.

Under sea warfare is a totally different game---there is nothing that compares it to on the surface.

Undersea warfare is purely and solely based on the quality of your equipment, the technology used in it and your weapons system. It is already taken for granted that the crew is very well versed with their equipment. So, it will not be the issue of man behind the machine---the man is capable on both the side---the ultimate breahker will be the machine.

You see, unlike the open skies, in the deep, it is purely on the basis of superior equipment, that you can over power your enemy.

Going for the chinese subs is a very poor decision indeed. Thwew german U 214 rule in the silent sub category---their tech is eons ahead of the chinese. The chinese won't get there in the next 10---15 years.

Basically two thumbs down for chinese subs---for now.

German and French subs are definitely superior, no one will deny. But don't forget that it was a Chinse Yuan class submarine which got close to firing range to the American Fleet in Pacific Ocean undetected!!

PN's requirement is to have around 24 subs by 2020/25. Not all of them can be purchased from west, at least half the fleet will come from China.
I think its a good call, they're cheap and capable. We also have learnt a lot from Agosta programme, I'm sure we can use some of the technology to inprove Yuan Class subs.

Zaki · 03-26-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

German and French subs are definitely superior, no one will deny. But don't forget that it was a Chinse Yuan class submarine which got close to firing range to the American Fleet in Pacific Ocean undetected!!

PN's requirement is to have around 24 subs by 2020/25. Not all of them can be purchased from west, at least half the fleet will come from China.
I think its a good call, they're cheap and capable. We also have learnt a lot from Agosta programme, I'm sure we can use some of the technology to inprove Yuan Class subs.

any source to prove your claim?

Neo · 03-26-2010, 06:48 PM

Pakistani Military Think Tank. ;)

Mastankhan · 03-26-2010, 10:48 PM

Hi,

If you read up on submarine warfare, you will be totally astounded at the difference of technology the west has over russia and china.

Sub surface warfare is a totally different ball game---the man behind the machine scenario does not fit here becauser it is the machine that is doing all the work---ie---it is the sensors and electronic equipment that is deciphering what is out there.

The american sea weolf class subs are supposedly quieter at 20 knots than the los angeles class sub sitting at the port in her pen---and the russians may not have subs as quiet as the los angeles class---chinese are nowhere in the picture.

The chinese sub that was lying in wait of the american A/C carrier couldnot have done much even if it had launched the torps---the the defencive and offencive systems in the carrier group would have kicked in---the chinese torp would have gone nowhere and chinese sub a toast.

All the chinese subs make too much noise---even the ones with AIP---in sub warfare---you would rather have quality and---better electronics and better weapons systems---.

You have to understand that the chinese are about 10---20 years---I am sure it is about 20 years away from where the germans are in their sub technology---.

Your surface fleet can survive with the support of air power and cunning resource. The sub surface vessel is totally totally on its own---where better electronics and better weapons rule the game.

People don't realize that pakistan had always had some quality weapons all the time---either 65 or 71 wars---some of our equipment was as superior or better than the enemies---even though it was less in numbers.

What can pak do with its experience with agosta on chinese subs---nothing much---neither it has the capability nor the ability nor the understanding to make the sub quieter---even the chinese don't have that ability---.

Pak is better off with french subs---.