Timur - Founder of the Timurid Empire

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Singh

then how can any Subcontinental Muslim be proud of these barbarians ? :o :s

I see truth in these words by the nobel laureate V. S. Naipaul.

“Islam is in its origins an Arab religion. Everyone not an Arab who is a Muslim is a convert. Islam is not simply a matter of conscience or private belief. It makes imperial demands. A convert’s worldview alters. His holy places are in Arab lands; his language is Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own; he becomes, whether he likes it or not, a part of the Arab story. The convert has to turn away from everything that is his. The disturbance for societies is immense, and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved; the turning away has to be done again and again. People develop fantasies about who and what they are; and in the Islam of the converted countries there is an element of neurosis and nihilism. These countries can be easily set on the boil.”

Most people lose their identity after conversion to Islam. They become confused and fake Arabs and start hating and denying their previous identities.

The best way to deny that identity is to take and show pleasure in denigrating it. So to get approval from their Arab masters they denigrate the faith of their forefathers.

Doesn't work. The Arabs still consider them second class Muslims or worse. In fact I have seen their interviews where the Arabs consider them slaves!

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Singh

If Timur, Genghis Khan Nader Shah etc. are heroes of Islam , then isn't it hypocritical to claim Islam is a religion of peace and that there is no compulsion in religion ?

Something for Pakistani members to answer!

Mr. Neo, you thanked the genocidal post! Can you enlighten us?

[Singh]

Mr. Neo's got a bit of explaining to do :p

I think he is of Persian-Central Asian descent.

[vinod2070]

^^ Isn't almost everyone here?

Most Pakistanis here will claim to be Arabs, Persians, Turks or Afghans. Many will claim pure blood, whatever that means, or a proven lineage back to the prophet himself!

[Singh]

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Why do many Pakistanis spend more time celebrating Islamic history of regions outside India (especially Arabian), the ummah, and seem to show more concern in what is happening to their brethren in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir.

The Mughals and the Muslim population of the subcontinent weren’t all that bothered by the whole concept of the caliphate. As rulers they did not, or only superficially, recognised the Ottoman caliph. The Mughals, though Central Asian by decent, were deeply entrenched in the political and social traditions of the subcontinent and so was their Muslim polity.

Also, till even the reign of the last great Mughal ruler, Aurangzeb, there are only a handful of documented episodes involving any serious physical clashes between the Hindu majority and their Muslim counterparts. Compared to the communal violence between the two groups in India, and the drummed-up anti-Hindu sentiment in Pakistan in the 20th century, relations between the two communities were largely harmonious — especially during the reigns of Akbar and Shahjehan.

Thus, the roots of the modern-day Hindu-Muslim antipathy lie not in the distant past, but a mere hundred and fifty years back in history; or soon after the failure of the 1857 rebellion started jointly by disgruntled Hindu and Muslim soldiers against their colonial British masters.

As the British became a lot more imposing after the failed rebellion, they also began introducing a greater number of modern ideas and technology, some of which, like democracy, suddenly awakened the Muslims to a stark reality which they had simply not been aware of. The idea of majority rule suddenly made the Muslims realise that they were actually in a minority.

As the region’s Muslims finally resigned to the fact that the age of Muslim kings was as good as over, a number of Muslim scholars and reformers emerged and attempted to undermine the Muslims’ minority status. Both conservative as well as liberal reformists, though disagreeing on a number of issues, agreed that to supplement their community’s sudden minority status, the Muslims of the region must now start identifying themselves as citizens of the worldwide Muslim ummah.

Soon, as India entered the 20th century, conservative Muslim scholars also started reshaping Muslim history of the region. To them Mughal kings in general, and Akbar in particular, became arch villains, mainly for their ‘liberal views’ and detachment from the Turkish caliphate, which, according to these scholars, led to the downfall of Islam in India.

Of course there was nothing academically or historically sound about such theories, and such scholars simply failed to look into the obvious political and economic reasons behind the fall of the Muslim rule, but the emotionally-charged claims resonated with a Muslim milieu ruing its lost status.

The rewriting of the history of Muslim India by such scholars soon saw the Muslims of India talking more about ancient Muslim conquerors (mainly Arab), and gleefully celebrating plunderers like Mehmood Ghaznavi and Muhammad Ghori, all the while downplaying Muslim rulers who had made India their home and played a leading role in uniting the region as a distinct and diverse empire.

As the British began introducing limited democratic reforms, a section of Hindu extremists too, excited by their majority status rose to glorify their own new heroes. And even though the Indian National Congress remained above such extremism, the Muslim League, however, at the behest of Muhammad Iqbal (and not Jinnah), gave a more intellectual context to what the conservative Muslim thinkers were propagating.

To Iqbal, Indian nationalism that propagated a joint Hindu-Muslim struggle against the British (and of which Jinnah too was once an advocate), was contrary to the concept of a united Muslim ummah. So, was Iqbal’s articulate tirade a Utopian critique of nationalism that only ended up in generating a struggling dystopia?

The legacy of communalism in India and anti-Hindu sentiments in Pakistan are a product of two main historical events: The suddenly discovered majority fascism amongst the extremist Hindu fringe, and the Utopian intellectualisation of the Muslims’ minority complex who were asked to look outside India for inspiration and somewhat ignore the brilliant legacy of (the supposed “Hindu-friendly”) Muslim rulers of the region. Ironically, the Congress, too, fell for this Utopian interpretation by supporting the Khilafat Movement, which the Muslim League did not back.

But today in Pakistan Muslims comprise a huge majority. So why do many Pakistanis spend more time celebrating Islamic history of regions outside India (especially Arabian), the ummah, and seem to show more concern in what is happening to their brethren in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir, while drowning out the havoc being perpetrated by fellow Muslims inside their own country?

If we study the recent trend of reactionary thinking and of denials doing the rounds, we will notice it is largely the vocation of the urban middle-class. In an era of populist democracy (mostly associated with the urban working class and the rural peasantry), the middle-class feels itself to be a minority.

Thus, it can be suggested that this class too seems to be suffering from the kind of minority complex of the early 20th century. Perhaps that’s why, comparatively speaking, it is this class that is today enthusiastically responding to all the retro-Islamic paraphernalia, anti-democracy sentiment and empty, rhetorical muscle-flexing based on glorified fables and myths of “Muslim power” doing the rounds in drawing rooms — the popular media and cyber space today.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | The minor majority

Inferiority complex is for teh losers :D

[sohamsri]

I'm disappointed by the posting of such an article in a forum shared by Indians(most of us are Hindus), and I'm even more disappointed at the emphasis of the slaughter.



To the author and poster,

This shows how your definition of glory and greatness is in sync with slaughter and genocide.
Consider this as a personal attack if you must,
but A1Kaid, you disgust me.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by sohamsri

I'm disappointed by the posting of such an article in a forum shared by Indians(most of us are Hindus), and I'm even more disappointed at the emphasis of the slaughter.

Soham. You will get used to this. This is how the minds of many Islamists work. I won't go deep into this here.

To the author and poster,

This shows how your definition of glory and greatness is in sync with slaughter and genocide.
Consider this as a personal attack if you must,
but A1Kaid, you disgust me.

That such people disgust all civilized human beings is a given. The day the Muslims and Pakistanis find them disgusting will be the day they will start redeeming themselves and start a small step towards inter faith understanding.

That day the others can also feel for the sufferings of Muslims in so many places today. They can sympathize them for the "profiling".

Till that day, sorry. You deserve all this and then some more. As long as you glorify rapes and genocides and religious intolerance and forced conversions and slavery and much worse and their perpetrators.

[Xeric]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

This is also the reason why Islam and Muslims are held in such poor light not only in Eastern Europe (Bosina!), Spain and any place they ravaged but even in countries like China, Japan and Korea!

Do Muslims really think they will get any sympathy from non Muslims for Palestinians or Lebanese after taking pride in such murderous scum? Won't people say: they deserve all that Israel is doing to them and then some?

I would think so!

You need to read more of Spain.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Xeric

You need to read more of Spain.

We have a Spain thread already where I have presented my views on these issues.

[A1Kaid]

What part of Jihaad don't you understand?



I've read all the rants and cries by the Hindu body here, and quite frankly nothing unexpected.


But let me say this...

There are parts of Timur's actions and conquest I don't morally nor militarily and politically don't agree with, Nonetheless the conquest and the vicious assault on the Delhi Sultanate and most of Hindustan (At the time ruled by Muslims too tolerant towards their Hindu slaves and subjects) was necessary.

Some have even dared to call into question Islam as a religion of peace, Islam is a religion of peace and we don't have to keep proving that every time we launch a legitimate attack. Islam is also a pragmatic religion which under certain conditions and circumstances requires Jihaad and warfare is implemented whether for defensive or offensive reasons.

Muslims in fact have been far more tolerance than most, the Islamic Khilafah is the only single empire to ever have a highly diverse empire consisting of Arabs, Berbers, Africans, Turks, Afghans, Central Asian Turks, Chinese, Persians, modern day Pakistan, and central Indians and all these civilizations worked in the harmony and peace under Islam, in one large all encompassing Empire.

Islam has shown it's tolerance and peace in Al-Andalus, and throughout the ME many Jews have lived side by side Muslims in spite of all the propaganda efforts to malign Muslims. Today, Iran has the second largest Jewish community in the ME, they prosper side-by-side the Muslims and Christians.


So, just because Allah has decided to take the sword to the necks of the enemies of Islam, does not mean there is a contradiction in realistic terms. Again, Islam is a practical religion and this religion understands what it must do, and what must be done must be done.


How dare the cow-worshipers, how dare these blasphemous fools not even have the decency to worship the very Allah that created them, and they asked why Allah has waged War against them. Why Allah has brought upon them a brutal and devastating invasion, which conquered their entire civilization. Do you think your insults to humanity and Allah will go unnoticed? You Hindus are one of the biggest ~Mod Edit~ ever. Hypocrites.

You want peace and tolerance, we see how you behave today in Kashmir, in Bangladesh, in NWFP, we see how you behaved in Mumbai, Babri Masjid, Gujarat and more. You showed the world your true nature. Under Islam rule the Mughal Empire was one of the most prosperous Empires in the world, with some of the highest recording GDP in the world at the time.

Muslims brought respect and dignity to the subcontinent, the World respected the Mughals. The term Muslims and Mughals was associated with math & science. You brought cow-worshiping and your superficial man-made idolatrous way of life, indeed even children know better. Muslims fed you, clothed you when you would walk around half-naked like uncivilized tribes, we educated you, brought you literacy, we gave you a better life standard, we were your role models of what is a good man. This is how you repay us. Today, you express your hatred for Islam and Muslims even the ones living in Hindustan but you guys are very quick to make a lot of profit from Islamic architecture and buildings and landmarks...

Overall, what Timur did, his Jihaad was by far effective Jihaad campaign in Asia specifically Hindustan. Yes parts of it are unfortunate...The conquest of Delhi was politically and strategically reasonable. Though again I would have liked to see some difference in operation by Timur, but what has happened has happened.