"No Muslim Force has Won Anything...Against Non-Muslim for several centuries..."

[A1Kaid]

It's time to debunk this myth many ignorant and uninformed people believe.

Originally Posted by vinod2070

Let me tell you a little secret.

I know why cowards like you jump in calling the destruction of half of Lebanon by Israel a "victory" by Hizbollah.

I also know why you want to hide under the skirts of "kaffir" China.

It is to hide your own impotence. No Muslim force has won anything of note against any Non-Muslims for several centuries!

The Afghans were helped by Americans, else they would have achieved squat. But it has given people like you ideas. Ideas that would be again in dust soon. Just wait and watch.

I know who is frustrated. It is not me!

"No Muslim force has won anything of note against any Non-Muslims for several centuries!"

False.

The Battle of Gallipoli took place on the Turkish peninsula. Battle of of Gallipoli in 1915 during the First World War. A combined Allied operation was mounted in order to eventually capture the Ottoman capital of Constantinople. The attempt failed, and an estimated 131,000 soldiers were killed and 262,000 wounded.

Battle of Gallipoli
Conflict First World War
Date 19 February, 1915 - 9 January, 1916
Place Gallipoli peninsula, Turkey
Result Ottoman victory

Source: Battle Of Gallipoli Beach Turkish Division Anzac British Attack

March 26-31: Ottomans defeat British in First Battle at Amman...Ottomans retake Kars on Caucus front.

Source: Turkey and Greece: The Aegean Disputes - Google Books

Turkish War of Independence 1920-1923+ (Turkey Defeats Greece)

Military action between Turks and Greeks in Anatolia in 1920 was inconclusive, but the nationalist cause was strengthened the next year by a series of brilliant victories. Twice (in January and again in April) Ismet Pasha defeated the Greek army at Inönü, blocking its advance into the interior of Anatolia. In July, in the face of a third offensive, the Turkish forces fell back in good order to the Sakarya Nehri, eighty kilometers from Ankara, where Atatürk took personal command and decisively defeated the Greeks in a twenty day battle.

An improvement in Turkey's diplomatic situation accompanied military success. Impressed by the viability of the nationalist forces, both France and Italy had withdrawn from Anatolia by October 1921.

Source: Turkish War of Independence - All About Turkey

In 1919-1922 the Turkish War of Independence, Ottoman/Turkish Army defeated Greece. Ottoman Turkey reclaimed all of Western Anatolia, crushing the Christian Greek Forces. This is a fact of history no source really needed but reading source is below...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-T...9%E2%80%931922)

"I know why cowards like you jump in calling the destruction of half of Lebanon by Israel a "victory" by Hizbollah."

You know nothing. Besides, the war just proved what a barbaric civilian-killing blood thirsty force Israel is. Hezbollah won a morale boosting and tactical victory of Israel. Proving a smaller well trained Arab Army can go toe to toe with US-backed Israel with all it's superior weaponry and technology...



You've been proven wrong so many times, carry on now...

[vinod2070]

Two parts:

One the Turkish victory and second the Hizbollah.

Let's take them one by one.

Was Turkey a victor in WW-1? If so how? What did it win from a war in which it was a part of the axis powers that started the war?

What did it gain from the war?

It had an Ottoman empire before the war, how much did that increase after this great victory?

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by A1Kaid

You know nothing. Besides, the war just proved what a barbaric civilian-killing blood thirsty force Israel is. Hezbollah won a morale boosting and tactical victory of Israel. Proving a smaller well trained Arab Army can go toe to toe with US-backed Israel with all it's superior weaponry and technology...

Let's leave out the judgmental part aside. We need to discuss victory here in terms of the gains made by the parties.

So do tell me, what did Hezbollah win in concrete terms (moral victory is subjective). What were their war aims? How did this victory help them advance them? Was it all worth it considering the tremendous pain caused to the Lebanese civilians?

What next after that "great victory"?

I think it is obvious that Israel did not achieve its war aims (destruction of Hezbollah). I want you tell me the opposite side of the story.

You've been proven wrong so many times, carry on now...

I suggest you to not prejudge. Leave it for the readers to decide if that really matters so much to you.

[Jana]

Muslim force??? you need to define what do you mean by a Muslim force. if you mean military of a Muslim country or we can go back into history as far as the time of when Islam emerged in the world.

[Solid Beast]

Hezbollah's stalemate against Israel is not counted as a "Islam vs. Judaism" or "right vs wrong" in my view so please stop thinking along such generically defined lines....in my eyes they are all stupid and blowing up each other is probably justified through all acts of the divine and nature. It's science, two unstable idiot compounds will react when close to each other. Who suffers? Innocent people. Who wins? The same institutions that we think represent our ideals when they actually represent nothing of the sort. Do you think the government of Israel is good for Judaism's survival? Of course not they are a doomed nation. Do you think Hezbollah would stand a second under true Islamic scrutiny? No for they are nothing but a politicized garbage child of Iran's own warped Islamic conquest-dom which I hope will be stamped out soon by an equally and oppositely stupid Judaic - Christ on a muffin - war hysteria. Equillibrium will be found when both sides extremists are wiped out. Might be worrying to the Western side of the problem that the poor tend to breed way faster...as for India and Pakistan our hatred is actually at peace with the universe...we are good for another 1,000 years of the same garbage relationship. Nukes are just fancy terms for "weapons the other side thinks we will use". North Korea is more likely to nuke the US Japan and South Korea than any curry radiation bomb war over here.

[Adux]

Well Hezabollah's objective is not make a secular state, rather an Islamic state, and Israel is a jewish state, it cant get clearer than that.

[vinod2070]

Hezbollah's stalemate against Israel is not counted as a "Islam vs. Judaism" or "right vs wrong" in my view so please stop thinking along such generically defined lines

To me, that makes sense. Religion is only a small factor, even an afterthought for the issue, just a rallying cry in my opinion.

One that is still powerful and draws support and cheer from many who want to just see it in religious terms.

Here the issue has been projected by A1Kaid as a magnificent Arab/Muslim victory against non-Muslims and I want to see the reasons beyond empty rhetoric.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Jana

Muslim force??? you need to define what do you mean by a Muslim force. if you mean military of a Muslim country or we can go back into history as far as the time of when Islam emerged in the world.

Here we are talking of the last several centuries, not the beginning of Islam.

[A1Kaid]

Originally Posted by Jana

Muslim force??? you need to define what do you mean by a Muslim force. if you mean military of a Muslim country or we can go back into history as far as the time of when Islam emerged in the world.

Muslim force??? you need to define what do you mean by a Muslim force.

Well not necessarily, because some troubled persons failed to be direct in their dialogue and debate discourse this allows the words "Muslim forces" to be broad and open to interpretation. So because it is left undefined specifically it allows for an open yet understandable interpretation. Meaning, even a Muslim militia could be put under the category of "Muslim forces"...

Two parts:

One the Turkish victory and second the Hizbollah.

Let's take them one by one.

Was Turkey a victor in WW-1? If so how? What did it win from a war in which it was a part of the axis powers that started the war?

What did it gain from the war?

It had an Ottoman empire before the war, how much did that increase after this great victory?

Was Turkey a victor in WW-1?

What you fail to understand even though the Ottoman Empire surrendered 10,ooo troops and signed the treaty of Sevres. Nationalist forces in Turkey continued the battles of World War I which then evolved into the War of National Liberation, and ultimately by the end of all the war, Turkey was liberated and Turkey defeated all foreign forces and enemies and occupied. Never did foreign forces occupy and hold onto Turkey as they planned.

Turkey ultimately won, this is a fact. They won militarily on several highly profiled battles such as Battle of Gallipoli they won battles in Baghdad as well against British Army.

They also managed to defeat all Greek forces occupying western Anatolia.


Turkey in it's War of National Liberation, achieved ALL of it's Military objectives. A fact of history.

Originally Posted by vinod2070

Let's leave out the judgmental part aside. We need to discuss victory here in terms of the gains made by the parties.

So do tell me, what did Hezbollah win in concrete terms (moral victory is subjective). What were their war aims? How did this victory help them advance them? Was it all worth it considering the tremendous pain caused to the Lebanese civilians?

What next after that "great victory"?

I think it is obvious that Israel did not achieve its war aims (destruction of Hezbollah). I want you tell me the opposite side of the story.



I suggest you to not prejudge. Leave it for the readers to decide if that really matters so much to you.

"So do tell me, what did Hezbollah win in concrete terms (moral victory is subjective). What were their war aims? How did this victory help them advance them? Was it all worth it considering the tremendous pain caused to the Lebanese civilians?"

Nearly every historian, researcher, and academic have come to the conclusion that Israel's war with Hezbollah was a defeat for Israel. Even the Bush White House considered it a defeat for Israel.

It's quite foolish of you really to deny Hezbollah's victory, because even the Israelis admitted they lost the War. Even they admitted they failed to achieve their objectives of capturing the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers, which they miserably failed.


Hezbollah we now know is stronger then it was before the War, they gained further popularity, more weapons, more funding, more government support. All the destroyed infrastructure can be fixed, roads can be rebuild, schools, buildings, all the civilian infrastructure Israel deliberately targeted. Even the UN condemned Israel for it's attack on Lebanese civilian infrastructure...Not to mention Israel hit a UN building which it was warned not to...


Hezbollah fired more rockets in the last day of the War then it did at any time period of the War. Fact. Hezbollah repelled Israeli soldiers, Israeli soldiers themselves have testified that they were defeated by Hezbollah fighters...Fact. Not only that but after the humiliating defeat Israeli PM Ehud Olmert suffered a huge decline in public support after the War and the decision was eventually made for him to resign. Fact. Hezbollah's resistance and war efforts forced Israel into a prisoner swap deal, where Israel the released hundreds of Arab-Lebanese, some believed to be Palestinians too prisoners free. Fact.






Only you are in denial.

[A1Kaid]

Israel army chief admits failures

Israeli military chief of staff, Lt Gen Dan Halutz, has publicly admitted to failings in the conflict with Hezbollah militants in Lebanon.

In a letter to troops, he said it had exposed shortcomings in the military's logistics, operations and command.

There would be a thorough and honest investigation, he promised.

Meanwhile, the head of Israel's security service Shin Bet accused the government of abandoning residents of northern Israel during the conflict.

And Israeli citizens have been protesting outside Jerusalem's parliament building over the handling of the conflict, some calling for senior officials to resign.

Stock portfolio

Apart from his conduct of the war, Gen Halutz has faced criticism for selling his entire stock market portfolio hours before the outbreak of fighting in Lebanon.

He has denied any wrongdoing.



"We have to proceed to a meaningful examination of the successes and the errors, "Gen Halutz said in his letter.

"We have to extract professional lessons, as we are faced with more challenges... This test concerns us all, from me down to the last soldier."

The Israeli army lost 116 soldiers. Forty-three civilians were also killed by more than 4,000 Hezbollah rocket attacks.

About 1,000 Lebanese were killed in the conflict, mostly civilians in Israel's vast bombardment of the county and land invasion in the south.

The conflict was sparked by a cross-border raid by Hezbollah fighters in which they captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight others.

Throughout the military campaign against Lebanon, Israel's twin aims were the return of the captured Israeli soldiers and the removal of Hezbollah's influence from southern Lebanon.

Critics and opposition figures have said that neither of these aims has been achieved.

In a separate development, Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin told a closed security forum that government systems in northern Israel had "completely collapsed" during the Hezbollah rocket attacks.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has promised more than $2bn to rebuild the towns worst affected in northern Israel.

Independent inquiry call

Mr Olmert is expected to announce in the next few days a decision on whether to hold a full state commission into the conflict.

A state commissions were ordered after the 1973 Yom Kippur War, a conflict in which the Israeli military was widely perceived to have underperformed.

Meanwhile, Defence Minister Amir Peretz has set up a ministerial inquiry to investigate how the military campaign in Lebanon was conducted.

The inquiry, headed by retired Israeli army chief Amnon Lipkin-Shahak, has already started work and is expected to produce an interim report within weeks.

Opposition politicians have called for an independent commission, not one appointed by Mr Peretz.

Source: BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israel army chief admits failures