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Military History Discussing historical aspects of warfare, including the conflicts of '48,'65,'71,'99

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Old 09-07-2009, 07:24 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Muslims Invaded Spain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod2070 View Post
Let me cross post a rant from the other thread.

Rant starts:

I have to say, I have never seen such an utter lack of introspection and admitting even the possibility of a fault anywhere else. We are all fallible and can make mistakes.

So not a single self critical comment on the Spain thread once I shared the slave article, just that they were perhaps no worse than the Europeans (this after claims of perfection and their perfect treatment of non-Muslims earlier). Also trying to take credit for the slavery abolition by Europeans! Not even looking at and acknowledging the Muslim's centuries of slave tradition that was much more inhumane and on a massive scale than anything else in history.

It is all other's fault, conspiracy, lies etc. They are Islamophobe and their views can be dismissed with that single word! We were always perfect, the Arabs could never have been wrong, they could never have committed any atrocity. How could they? They were following the way of the God, the final and perfect version, one that can never be improved upon. What does a mere human being know, Allah knows best!

Rant ends:
Early European history is a series of conquests of different groups and their later assimilation. There was the Barbarian (German) conquest of Rome, Alexanders March east , the Norman Conquest (French-Scandinavians?) of England etc. and none of this is considered especially cruel or extraordinary. Why consider an Islamic conquest extra-ordinary?

And as far as I know, the Islamic invaders of Spain were no more cruel than their predecessors. Until about 12-13th century, they were (arguably) amongst the nicest and the most enlightened of the people in Europe+West Asia. Indeed, it would appear that they were pretty well assimilated into the European culture (or the other way around) considering that "Othello" from shakespeare was about a Moor from Venice.


I am not saying that Arabs can never be cruel. But having seen the monuments left in Spain and the lack of hatred the locals exhibit for past kings, it does not seem right to single them out for being bad rulers. The problem with History is that the people with a name today might not behave in any way like people of the past. Pre-renaissance, Europe was poor and China rich. Now it is the other way around. Similarly, during those times Arabs developed the concept of chivalry in battle and forgiving enemies (unlike those day European practices -- kill the soldiers, rape the women and burn the city town). Nowadays, Osama has entirely destroyed that idea with chivalry replaced with suicide bombers.

(That said, the word Moor now has a slightly pejorative sense in Spanish -mostly used as a term for immigrants from Africa).
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:50 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Muslims Invaded Spain?

^^ Fair points. Here the issue is not about being as cruel as their European predecessors. They may have been and history is full of cruelty.

The thread started with a particular premise and I am taking issues with that premise.

I think the Moors did a lot of good in Spain too but ultimately they were outside invaders and were always living there on borrowed time, waiting to be kicked out when the time was up.
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Old 09-08-2009, 01:42 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:14 AM   #46 (permalink)
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A fantastic new book that lays to rest the ridiculous claims by many that Arabs were the harbingers of science and tolerance in barbaric Europe.

It couldn't have been more wrong.

Quote:
One of the most enduring problems of history is the decline of Classical Civilization. How was it that the civilization of Greece and Rome, which had endured almost a thousand years, a civilization which prized learning, science and reason, gave way to the world of the Medieval; an age which saw, for a while, the almost complete disappearance of the rationalist spirit of Greece and Rome? The traditional view was that after their seizure of Italy in the fifth century, the Barbarian tribes of Germany and Scythia had reduced Europe to an economic and cultural wasteland, initiating a Dark Age, which was to last half a millennium. After the Reformation, another suspect was added to the list: Christianity, or, more accurately, Catholic Christianity. In this view Christianity was corrupted beyond recognition after the time of Constantine and from the fourth century onwards a power-hungry Church hierarchy, in cahoots with the Imperial authorities, kept the population of Europe in subservience and ignorance, effectively completing the destructive work of the Barbarians.

In this ground-breaking work, historian John J. O'Neill examines a great variety of evidence from many specialties and reaches an astonishing and novel conclusion: Classical Civilization was not destroyed by Barbarians or by Christians. It survived intact into the early seventh century. The Vandals and Goths who seized the Western Empire in the fifth century had become completely romanized by the start of the sixth century. Artistic and intellectual life flourished, as did the economy and the cities built earlier under the Empire. Yet sometime in the middle of the seventh century everything changed. Cities were abandoned, literacy plummeted, royal authority declined and local strongmen, or "barons", seized control of the provinces. The Middle Ages had begun.

Who or what had caused this? As O'Neill notes, by the 1920s Belgian historian Henri Pirenne had located the proverbial "smoking gun"; but it was not in the hands of the Barbarians or the Christians: it was held by those who, even then, it had become fashionable to credit with saving, rather than destroying, Classical Civilization: the Arabs. In a conclusion that will have resonance for the modern world, O'Neill argues convincingly that all we regard as "Medieval" had its origin in Islam, and that the Muslims terminated Classical Civilization in Europe just as surely as they did in the Middle East. O'Neill shows how the sudden relapse of Europe in the seventh century was due entirely to the economic blockade imposed by Islam's war against Christendom. The Mediterranean, which had previously been a cultural highway, now became a frontier, and a very dangerous frontier at it. Prompted by Islam's doctrine of perpetual war against nonbelievers, Muslim pirates scoured the Mediterranean, effectively ending all trade between Europe and the great centers of civilization in the Near East. The flow of gold ended, as did the supply of all luxury items. And so too did the supply of papyrus from Egypt, without which Europeans were forced to rely on expensive parchment. Not surprisingly, literacy plummeted. Worst of all, the great cities of the West, which depended upon the trade in luxury items from the East, began to decline.

As the dominant power of the time, ideas originating in the Islamic world now began to penetrate Europe. From their Muslim foes Christian Europeans began to think in terms that would have been unimaginable a century earlier. The idea of "Holy War" entered the mindset of Christians, and, under the influence of Islam, the rationalism of Greece and Rome began to be replaced by a literal and intolerant interpretation of "The Book." Classical civilization was dead.
Read the fantastically authoritative book "Holy Warriors: Islam and the Demise of Classical Civilization". An eye opening books that lays to rest the hypocrisy going on around the world for the last nearly two centuries.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:57 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Muslims Invaded Spain?

I want to share with entire readers of PTF that Spain Invaded by Muslims Calif by the power of SWORD that reasons no one in this century remaining to called himself as MUSLIMS.

See the difference when Islam spread by Prophet Mohd ( PUBH ) and Hazrat Ali AS is not spread on the power of sword in Iran Iraq and see entire world admits that Shia-e-Ali is not restricted to single country?

I would add when our 6th Imam Hazrat Jaffer Sadiq AS that time 4000 students get education that reasons Shia-e-Ali religion is famous by Fiqa - e - Jafferia.

Proud to be Shia-e-Ali followers?
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