Historical folk tales in Pakistan And India.

[Lady Macbeth]

This ones for you Vinod :girl_wink:


As requested by my dear friend from across the border I am opening this thread so that we can discuss illusions of some people who think we are promoting hogwash in our history text books and schools....

First and foremost does our history really start with Mohammad Bin Qasims invasion of India and did he really come to the subcontinent to the aid of the oppressed? (The ones under Raja Dahirs rule).

[vinod2070]

OK, I would first wait for the Pakistani version of the story here.

Does Pakistan's history start from Mohammed Bin Qasim? Mr. Jinnah did say that the story of Pakistan starts from the first Muslim invader to India.

Why did Bin Qasim invade India?

What was his behavior towards the people of Sindh? Did they really go ga ga over his treatment of the natives?

How and why did Qasim die?

[vinod2070]

Actually I would suggest to discuss Indian and Pakistani myths in separate threads. Else it risks becoming a Tu tu main main thread.

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

Actually I would suggest to discuss Indian and Pakistani myths in separate threads. Else it risks becoming a Tu tu main main thread.

Aye aye Captain!.....changing the heading....



(Lady M comes back after a day and realises something ....)
''Ooopsy daisy....seems like I dont really know how or dont have the rights to change the heading after its already been posted''

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

OK, I would first wait for the Pakistani version of the story here.

Does Pakistan's history start from Mohammed Bin Qasim? Mr. Jinnah did say that the story of Pakistan starts from the first Muslim invader to India.

1)Why did Bin Qasim invade India?

2)What was his behavior towards the people of Sindh? Did they really go ga ga over his treatment of the natives?

3)How and why did Qasim die?

Where exactly did he say that????

1-Well one big reason was the one involving ships coming from Sri Lanka carrying the orphaned daughters of ARAB merchants, which were looted by pirates from the coast of Sindh....When Dahir did not lend the helping hand that the Arabs asked, for MBQ was sent.

2- Well he didnt put the people of Sindh through any wringer if you want to know,he just got rid of the tyrant who was busy marrying his sister.

3-There are two accounts of his death
: one was that the ladies who were sent back to the khalifa to be part of his harem tricked the khalifa into believing that MBQ had violated them before they were sent off. He died on the way(due to suffocation) when he was rolled in a cow/ox hide and sent back to Syria.

:Some on the other hand say that he was tortured when he was jailed by the Khalifa, because of his persoanl enmity, and he succumbed to his injuries during that torture.


Next!!!!!
(....and please someone else join in this discussion as well...if this thread was solely meant for Vinod then I would have posted it on his wall or PMed him....but then again he obviously knows all the details anyway...)

[Lady Macbeth]

[QUOTE=vinod2070;3840]OK, I would first wait for the Pakistani version of the story here.
QUOTE]

Oh and your version V?
or the indian version if you want to call it that!!!!

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

Where exactly did he say that????

He said that the seeds of the two nation theory were laid the day the first Muslim invader landed in India. This is well documented.

1-Well one big reason was the one involving ships coming from Sri Lanka carrying the orphaned daughters of ARAB merchants, which were looted by pirates from the coast of Sindh....When Dahir did not lend the helping hand that the Arabs asked, for MBQ was sent.

OK. I quote from Shahida's article now.

Mohammad Bin Qasim came to India to help oppressed widows and orphan girls.

Because of our blissful ignorance of history, we don’t know, or don’t bother to know, that this period was the age of expansion of the Islamic empire. The Arabs had conquered a large portion of the world, comprising the entire Middle East, Persia, North Africa and Spain. Therefore, it defies logic that they would not seek to conquer India, the land of legendary treasures.

In fact, the Arabs had sent their first expedition to India during Hazrat Umar Farooq’s tenure. A subsequent expedition had come to Makran during Hazrat Usman’s rule. But they had been unsuccessful in making any in-roads into the region. Later on, following the refusal of the king to give compensation for the ships captured by pirates (which incidentally included eight ships full of treasures from Sri Lanka, and not just women and girls), two expeditions had already been sent to India, but they proved unsuccessful. It was the third expedition brought by Mohammad Bin Qasim which succeeded in capturing Sindh, from Mansura to Multan. However, because of the Arabs’ internal dissension and political infighting, Sindh remained a neglected outpost of the Arab empire, and soon reverted to local kings.

If you think about it, it makes so much sense. The Arabs were getting powerful, attacking in all directions. There was just no way, India would not be a target. We were the Golder Sparrow (Sonay ki chidiya).

History is written by victors. In this case they were Arabs. They could always make excuses for their invasions like GWB made for Iraq.

2- Well he didnt put the people of Sindh through any wringer if you want to know,he just got rid of the tyrant who was busy marrying his sister.

I will post from a neutral writer on this subject. I am quoting a small portion. You can go through the link if you want. A bit longish read.

For the first time the people of Sindh were introduced to Islam, itspolitical system and way of the government. The people here had seen only the atrocities of the Hindus. . . . The people of Sindh were so much impressed by the benevolence of Muslims that they regarded Muhammad-bin-Qasim as their savior. . . . Muhammad-bin-Qasim stayed in Sindh for over three years. On his departure from Sindh, the local people were overwhelmed with grief." When I visited Hyderabad, Sindh in 1997, I discussed the contents of this textbook with local Sindhis, who assured me that they told their children an alternative version of this story. They informed me that any good Sindhi knows that "in several cities in ancient Sindh, Muhammad-bin-Qasim beheaded every male over the age of eighteen and that he sent tens of thousands of Sindhi women to the harems of the Abbassid Dynasty." They also explained that impact of these textbooks was minimal because, though the back of the book indicated that 20,000 copies were supposedly printed annually, that, because of corruption, "fewer than 10,000 were ever printed and distributed."

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/104770

There are also other Muslim accounts that corroborate the same.

3-There are two accounts of his death
: one was that the ladies who were sent back to the khalifa to be part of his harem tricked the khalifa into believing that MBQ had violated them before they were sent off. He died on the way(due to suffocation) when he was rolled in a cow/ox hide and sent back to Syria.

:Some on the other hand say that he was tortured when he was jailed by the Khalifa, because of his persoanl enmity, and he succumbed to his injuries during that torture.

OK. This at least proves how much the Arabs at the time believed in the honor of women. The war booty was a major attraction for them. Rapes and murders were common after any war since the earliest days of Islam, even within Arabia. The Khalifa actually berated MBQ for being too lenient with the kaafirs (even after all that I posted above happening). He felt it was not as per the religious percepts.

I think if the first account is true, he deserved it for all that he did in Sindh. Forget about religion for a moment, just think of the human cost.

Next!!!!!
(....and please someone else join in this discussion as well...if this thread was solely meant for Vinod then I would have posted it on his wall or PMed him....but then again he obviously knows all the details anyway...)

I agree. Some other member's joining would be good. Let's discuss in a spirit of inquiry and healthy debate. Most of the events took place long back and have no bearing on our present.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

Oh and your version V?
or the indian version if you want to call it that!!!!

I am going to present my version as a reply to the Pakistani version.

I won't call it the Indian version. Many of these things (like MBQ's invasion) are not even a part of our curriculum. Our history curriculum has been sanitized as our commie historians feel that is the best way to peddle the official line on history. I have read much of it after schooling, in many cases from international writers.

I think their motives for hiding such history is not malevolent though. India has a multi religious population and they may fear that such facts may cause hatreds as our people are emotional.

I personally think we should not be afraid of facts, however unpleasant they are.

[vinod2070]

one was that the ladies who were sent back to the khalifa to be part of his harem tricked the khalifa into believing that MBQ had violated them before they were sent off. He died on the way(due to suffocation) when he was rolled in a cow/ox hide and sent back to Syria.

I would like to make another comment on the bravery of these Sindh princesses. If the account is true, my salutes to these brave girls. My understanding is that they came out with the truth after MBQ was dead knowing well that this will result in their death.

MBQ was the cause of much destruction in their land and kingdom and also the dishonoring of the princesses and thousands of other girls from their kingdom.

They were fully entitled to taking revenge in the only way available to them. Incredibly brave girls. Hats off!

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

I would like to make another comment on the bravery of these Sindh princesses. If the account is true, my salutes to these brave girls. My understanding is that they came out with the truth after MBQ was dead knowing well that this will result in their death.

MBQ was the cause of much destruction in their land and kingdom and also the dishonoring of the princesses and thousands of other girls from their kingdom.

They were fully entitled to taking revenge in the only way available to them. Incredibly brave girls. Hats off!

What you are not serious are you, didnt I tell you they ''tricked'' the khalifa into believing that MBQ did the awful things they allegedly accused him of.
And these ''brave''girls- Raja Dahirs daughters werent trying to get even for anything else but just to avenge the death of their father....

The only destruction that he caused was....destruction of an incestuous beast......And maybe scores of Jats who, like catterpillars were knawing on Sindh and destroying and looting the people and the economy.