Historical folk tales in Pakistan And India.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

And I repeat Their were other factors involved as well.......(post 12)
If helping other states enforce their religious principles was the only reason behind Muslims or even Chritains invading other countries wouldnt this world be a very different place?

I never said they did it for religion. They did it for the booty and because they were powerful enough to be able to do so.

Pretty much why the British or other Europeans colonized the world or the Mongols made the biggest land empire in history.

They only used religion as a crutch as the others used some other crutch.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

I, for one, am not wearing those tinted glasses you mentioned(they just dont suit my face cut)....

That's a good one. ;)

Jokes aside ....I seriously wonder how one can get cheap thrills simply comparing bandits to what even some people in India consider exemplars!

Here the idea is not to get cheap thrills but to present a different perspective. I know it is difficult to appreciate a perspective that is at 180 degrees to your own and that you may have cherished from a really impressionable age.

I don't share the same perspective and just gave an analogy for the same act but by removing the reverence that you have from the picture.

If you still feel it was for cheap thrills and are offended I would apologize for that.

There is a whole lot of difference between a bandit leader and MBQ but I am not going to go on and on gushing his praises.

It mainly depends on the perspective. The crusaders may be something to look up to for many Christians, not so for the Arabs.

Anyway, the bandit thing was just to discuss the act and the nobility or lack thereof.

And ok i'll give it to you as I previously did anyway "brave"..... and I'll give you an extra set of quotation marks just incase I forget in the future """".

Merci. I obviously didn't miss those quote marks.

I was happy that you could really appreciate the bravery of those girls. I hear they died a horrible death but didn't see any details.

What did the Caliph do to those girls once they came out with the truth?

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

Stockholm syndrome eh.....isnt it the other way round? those girls werent really showing signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker(not that I am indicating that they should)....your conclusion is so not right!
(Lets not get stuck on arguing on this one)

Of course the girls did not show this syndrome, it is you who said this:

Well yes these girls were brave...very brave indeed...but this does not take away the attention from the fact that they had not been ravished until now! These beautiful girls were had their honours intact.......a testimony to the restrained shown by the Muslim soldiers and officers was that these beautiful princesses had reached the Khalifa without missing a hair on their head.

The only reason why those princesses managed this trick was exactly because they knew that such defilement of women would be severely punished and this was also a factor in the muslim armies good treatment of civilian women and children.

I see from this that you wanted them to be grateful for their ordeal and appreciate that it could have been worse.

Also, I think the princesses correctly guessed that the Caliph would be angry on hearing this, not because of any altruistic reasons like why his soldiers indulged in such acts, but because his portion of the booty had been tempered with, so to speak.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

Duh...isnt the prosecution supposd to present its case first?
I am asking you for an authentic source and you pass the ball back to me???? Dont you want to play? :girl_cray3:

I presented one at least, which you rejected because he is a Jew! Now isn't he an ahle-e-kitaab? ;)

I don't look at myself as necessarily prosecution here. We started from the myth thread and I offered to discuss anything that you find wrong in the good professor's article. You did sound more than a little angry with her.

Now. may be you and others can successfully defend some of the myths that you chose to take up here. I would try to present the good professor's case to the best of my ability as I think she has done a great job.

That article is still written by the good professor and I hope that point will be appreciated.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Please do not forget , that his army comprised of many rajput soldiers and officers, whose completed loyalty he commanded.

I would like to take up this issue in a bit more detail as I have seen this come up again and again.

Yes, it is true. Akbar had Rajput soldiers and even a Rajput general (Raja Mansingh).

The British won over the whole of India using the Indian sepoy. They also used Indian soldiers to crush the 1857 movement mainly SIkhs, Pathans and I think regiments composed of some lower caste battalions. I have seen some horrible stories of how the Pathans treated the Indian Musalmaans after the rebellion was crushed, including stuffing pork in the mouth of their fellow religionists.

Also, all these worthy soldiers helped the British massively suppress their own countrymen. We know that there was no tree in many areas from which someone was not hanging.

The story is not unique to India. The very name "Quisling" for a traitor comes from Norway. Every country has been ruled by foreigners because they got collaborators within. The Arabs sided with the British against the Ottomans and then with the Nazis against the British. Hitler got support from within France after defeating them. I can go on...

The point is, the presence of some Rajputs in Akbar's (or even Aurangzeb's) army doesn't prove that they were totally fair to Hindus or that they were divinely ordained.

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

I never said they did it for religion. They did it for the booty and because they were powerful enough to be able to do so.

Booty???And thats enough to make this really handsome man in his prime years (leave his lovely home where this amazing wife of his dwells) gather an army an invade a state where he may or may not (mind my french) get a leg over some lineal top brass.
No matter how powerful I become you would still hear me say...''no way in Hell''....( but then what would I know I'm not a flipping nyphomaniac! ....there now I have used it in the right context )

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

That's a good one. ;)

Here the idea is not to get cheap thrills but to present a different perspective. I know it is difficult to appreciate a perspective that is at 180 degrees to your own and that you may have cherished from a really impressionable age.
I don't share the same perspective and just gave an analogy for the same act but by removing the reverence that you have from the picture.
If you still feel it was for cheap thrills and are offended I would apologize for that.It mainly depends on the perspective. The crusaders may be something to look up to for many Christians, not so for the Arabs.
Anyway, the bandit thing was just to discuss the act and the nobility or lack thereof.
Merci. I obviously didn't miss those quote marks.
I was happy that you could really appreciate the bravery of those girls. I hear they died a horrible death but didn't see any details.

Why thank you Mr V.
And I do welcome all sorts of perspectives be it 45/90/180. You can pitch and I will defend my side. And no you havent offended me, you dont need to be jumpy when it comes to me. I rather enjoy our one to ones.

I was merely refering to armies invading other countries be it christains or jews muslims or even hindus. The crusaders are definately not some example to look up to but hey they did what they did and I am not here to defend or forsake them.

Your not the only one, (apparently historians didnt consider the death of those ''brave'' princesses (see i didnt miss the quotation marks this time) significant enough to be mentioned)....Even I couldnt find any compelling evidence of their brutal deaths

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

Of course the girls did not show this syndrome, it is you who said this:I see from this that you wanted them to be grateful for their ordeal and appreciate that it could have been worse.
Also, I think the princesses correctly guessed that the Caliph would be angry on hearing this, not because of any altruistic reasons like why his soldiers indulged in such acts, but because his portion of the booty had been tempered with, so to speak.

Why I never.....what where when wh....???
Well ofcourse it could have been worse, they could have actually been violated!

And again.... the booty hadnt been tampered with......

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

I presented one at least, which you rejected because he is a Jew! Now isn't he an ahle-e-kitaab? ;)I don't look at myself as necessarily prosecution here. We started from the myth thread and I offered to discuss anything that you find wrong in the good professor's article. You did sound more than a little angry with her.Now. may be you and others can successfully defend some of the myths that you chose to take up here. I would try to present the good professor's case to the best of my ability as I think she has done a great job.
That article is still written by the good professor and I hope that point will be appreciated.

Yes Daniel Pipes views are refuted by a lot of people because of his biased approach towards authenticities especially related to Islam and the arabs.Ahle Kitaab??I'll give you even better, Shahida Kazi is a muslim, doesnt mean I am going to agree to all her views ( the ones where she claims that we, as Pakistanis, have been fabricating history by breeding mythological accounts).
Oh it takes more than some mumbo jumbo from a prof of mass communications to tick me off (there seems to be a cool head over my shoulders when it comes to healthy discussions )

And ofcourse your points are well appreciated.....more adored actually( by me atleast) :)

[vinod2070]

Sleep time for me. Will get back tomorrow.

I am hugely enjoying this debate too. It has been really healthy so far, if heated. Exactly the sort I like.

Also, I won't hold my punches when it comes to the debate. If it feels offensive to any friend, I apologize in advance. My intention here is to present my facts and opinions and to learn the same from the other side.

Looking forward to this, Lady M. I suspect it is going to last a while.