Historical folk tales in Pakistan And India.

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

He said that the seeds of the two nation theory were laid the day the first Muslim invader landed in India. This is well documented.

BIG difference History OF and IN,
the 'history ""in" Pakistan.....as many proclaim is the history as written in our history books ie where the chapter starts.
Those many being 'Prof Shahida Kazi 'who you quoted from anyway.

the history "of" Pakistan.....ofcourse the two nation theory.

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

OK. I quote from Shahida's article now.

Mohammad Bin Qasim came to India to help oppressed widows and orphan girls.

Because of our blissful ignorance of history, we don’t know, or don’t bother to know, that this period was the age of expansion of the Islamic empire. The Arabs had conquered a large portion of the world, comprising the entire Middle East, Persia, North Africa and Spain. Therefore, it defies logic that they would not seek to conquer India, the land of legendary treasures.

In fact, the Arabs had sent their first expedition to India during Hazrat Umar Farooq’s tenure. A subsequent expedition had come to Makran during Hazrat Usman’s rule. But they had been unsuccessful in making any in-roads into the region. Later on, following the refusal of the king to give compensation for the ships captured by pirates (which incidentally included eight ships full of treasures from Sri Lanka, and not just women and girls), two expeditions had already been sent to India, but they proved unsuccessful. It was the third expedition brought by Mohammad Bin Qasim which succeeded in capturing Sindh, from Mansura to Multan. However, because of the Arabs’ internal dissension and political infighting, Sindh remained a neglected outpost of the Arab empire, and soon reverted to local kings.

If you think about it, it makes so much sense. The Arabs were getting powerful, attacking in all directions. There was just no way, India would not be a target. We were the Golder Sparrow (Sonay ki chidiya).

History is written by victors. In this case they were Arabs. They could always make excuses for their invasions like GWB made for Iraq.



I will post from a neutral writer on this subject. I am quoting a small portion. You can go through the link if you want. A bit longish read.

For the first time the people of Sindh were introduced to Islam, itspolitical system and way of the government. The people here had seen only the atrocities of the Hindus. . . . The people of Sindh were so much impressed by the benevolence of Muslims that they regarded Muhammad-bin-Qasim as their savior. . . . Muhammad-bin-Qasim stayed in Sindh for over three years. On his departure from Sindh, the local people were overwhelmed with grief." When I visited Hyderabad, Sindh in 1997, I discussed the contents of this textbook with local Sindhis, who assured me that they told their children an alternative version of this story. They informed me that any good Sindhi knows that "in several cities in ancient Sindh, Muhammad-bin-Qasim beheaded every male over the age of eighteen and that he sent tens of thousands of Sindhi women to the harems of the Abbassid Dynasty." They also explained that impact of these textbooks was minimal because, though the back of the book indicated that 20,000 copies were supposedly printed annually, that, because of corruption, "fewer than 10,000 were ever printed and distributed."

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/104770

There are also other Muslim accounts that corroborate the same.

Please refer to post number 5 where I said ''one big reason''....
Their were other factors involved as well...expansion of the Arab empire etc etc but isnt someone taking the ladies in your family reason enough for any warm blooded family man to invade the place where they are held captive????

They could always make excuses for their invasions like GWB made for Iraq

Yes ofcourse but where the case of George Bush lies, Jenna and Barbara werent held hostage in Iraq.

[Lady Macbeth]

Originally Posted by vinod2070

OK. This at least proves how much the Arabs at the time believed in the honor of women. The war booty was a major attraction for them. Rapes and murders were common after any war since the earliest days of Islam, even within Arabia. The Khalifa actually berated MBQ for being too lenient with the kaafirs (even after all that I posted above happening). He felt it was not as per the religious percepts.

I think if the first account is true, he deserved it for all that he did in Sindh. Forget about religion for a moment, just think of the human cost.


I agree. Some other member's joining would be good. Let's discuss in a spirit of inquiry and healthy debate. Most of the events took place long back and have no bearing on our present.

I am not going to start quoting from the Quran and the sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) how much women should be honoured in Islam etc etc.
Its totally upto any person how he behaves....but rapes and murders????
And you are quoting this from the words of Daniel Pipes- ''ONE'' Jewish political commentator whose opinions about Islam and the Middle East and the Arabs is as biased as he can get away with.....
Yes women were sent off to harems....but you honestly think the life of Harems for those ladies was better than the life they would have led if they were left on the sidewalks....since their protectors(ie father,brother etc) had been killed in war.
I shudder just thinking of those times and what those ladies would have gone through if it wasnt for the refuge they were provided in the ''ivory towers'' of the Harems.

And Danile Pipes deductions are based on various accounts from Sindhi locals not historians.....Sindhi locals also love to tell tales of the creature from hell that looks like a cross between a horse and a boa constrictor that eats up their produce from the fields...are we supposed to believe that as well?

[Zob]

ok so finally i thought i should join the foray but first i wanted to listen to all the "Indian" perspective there was out there!!

firstly vinod the whole concept of women and enjoyment and harem ladies and dancing girls didn't kick in in the 700A.D in the muslim world!! it actually kicked in the Ottoman Empire....by then muslim rulers were corrupted beyond repair!!

in the time of Mohammed Ibn Qasim Hajaj Bin Yousuf was the Khalifah!!

he recalled Qasim back not because some female who was sent to the khalifah complained of Qasims heavy handedness!!

Qasim was recalled because the khalifah grew insecure of his generals and was scared that one of them might return to the capital of the empire as a Ceaser and overthrow him!

this might help you understand the prespective better....now i know ZAID HAMID is the worse nightmare of INDIANS but for once he is talking specfic history and not discussing current affairs on how india should be treated!!

YouTube

YouTube

[Zob]

the problem is that there are two sides to history the indian view and then the pakistani view & then there is a 3RD which is the truth!!!

inorder to find out the truth you need to find out the arabic view of the situation back then!

and please do not forget muslim history in the sub continent has been meddled with by hindus as well as the British...so Muslim view has become very apologetic and has been watered down...and rulers like Jalludin have become famous and started being called Jallaludin Akbar.....may i ask why?

the answer is simple he was adored by the non muslims making him famous giving him titles....and if you look at him from purely a religious point of view then i guess he was a damned soul....but then again history has been rewritten and portrayed as wished by the victorious......

[Lady Macbeth]

Hurrah to Zaid Hamid....thank you Zob for the link.
So we are clear on that issue....next myth raised by Prof Shahida Kazi :

(http://www.pakistanstrategicreview.c...read.php?t=560)

Invasion of Mahmud Ghaznavi....Anyone care to comment????
(I'll get back to this one later if someone hasnt already started on this.)

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

What you are not serious are you, didnt I tell you they ''tricked'' the khalifa into believing that MBQ did the awful things they allegedly accused him of.

Tell me one thing. Here are some girls, their father has been killed by an enemy, their own honor has been taken by the same person, their kingdom gone, thousands of people killed.

What are they to do to avenge the enemy now? If they used a trick to eliminate the hated enemy (losing their lives in the bargain by coming out with the truth after the enemy is killed), I think the girls were brave.

MBQ may not have done the awful thing to them (1/5 booty had to go to the Khalifa intact) but he surely did awful things to Sindh and Sindhis.

And these ''brave''girls- Raja Dahirs daughters werent trying to get even for anything else but just to avenge the death of their father....

That is surely a conjecture. They lost more than their father, most of all their honor by being forcibly sent to the Harem.

Even if they were avenging just their father, it was a noble cause. I suspect they had much bigger reasons.

The only destruction that he caused was....destruction of an incestuous beast......And maybe scores of Jats who, like catterpillars were knawing on Sindh and destroying and looting the people and the economy.

I actually like this. See the focus on incest. I am not sure whether to believe this. Our religion does not permit incest, not even marrying with cousins.

Actually words like these are catchwords that turn the attention away from what was done by the invaders to the people.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

BIG difference History OF and IN,
the 'history ""in" Pakistan.....as many proclaim is the history as written in our history books ie where the chapter starts.
Those many being 'Prof Shahida Kazi 'who you quoted from anyway.

the history "of" Pakistan.....ofcourse the two nation theory.

I have no issues with that. I in fact welcome this.

Its a fact that many Muslims consider the pre-Islamic period as Jahiliya. Many Pakistanis do the same. But I do see a growing awareness of the pre-Islamic history and identity. A most welcome sign!

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

Please refer to post number 5 where I said ''one big reason''....
Their were other factors involved as well...expansion of the Arab empire etc etc but isnt someone taking the ladies in your family reason enough for any warm blooded family man to invade the place where they are held captive????

OK, even if I were to believe this, how did the Arabs respond? By taking thousands of ladies away from their family? Were they any better than the pirates?

They could always make excuses for their invasions like GWB made for Iraq

Yes ofcourse but where the case of George Bush lies, Jenna and Barbara werent held hostage in Iraq.

Well, more than 3000 people were killed on the mainland USA, the same country that had never been attacked on the mainland and that had so much power that it didn't know how to use it.

I won't try to explain for the USA and I think the attack on Iraq was on flimsy reasons. But still the point remains that if you are bent on a war, you can find reasons.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Lady Macbeth

I am not going to start quoting from the Quran and the sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) how much women should be honoured in Islam etc etc.
Its totally upto any person how he behaves....but rapes and murders????
And you are quoting this from the words of Daniel Pipes- ''ONE'' Jewish political commentator whose opinions about Islam and the Middle East and the Arabs is as biased as he can get away with.....
Yes women were sent off to harems....but you honestly think the life of Harems for those ladies was better than the life they would have led if they were left on the sidewalks....since their protectors(ie father,brother etc) had been killed in war.
I shudder just thinking of those times and what those ladies would have gone through if it wasnt for the refuge they were provided in the ''ivory towers'' of the Harems.

And Danile Pipes deductions are based on various accounts from Sindhi locals not historians.....Sindhi locals also love to tell tales of the creature from hell that looks like a cross between a horse and a boa constrictor that eats up their produce from the fields...are we supposed to believe that as well?

Dear lady, I can quote from the Hadhith about the instances of captured women's rapes from the earliest days of Islam. I won't like to do that unless challenged.

At this point all I want to say is that Arabs did indulge in rapes and murders in Sindh. It is present even in the Muslim writing. I also shared articles about how 30000 white virgins were sent to the Caliph from Spain as his 1/5 share of the booty.

Again, I really like the point that their lives were better in Harems than in sidewalks. So first someone kills one's family, makes her an orphan and then takes her in his Harem and she is supposed to be grateful for that.

Boggles the mind! You managed to numb me here.