PakistanTalk Forum

 

Go Back   PakistanTalk Forums > Defence & Geostrategy > Army


Army Forum to discuss Pakistan Army and land forces topics, including Pakistan army tanks, artillery, armoured vehicles, training and new technologies.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-18-2010, 01:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
Major
 
Condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 421
Thanks: 61
Thanked 78 Times in 60 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
Yeah well it reminds me of the Ardennes when there was an objective like the one you mention. However doing it at low strength would reduce it's chances substantially .Also they would have a limited time frame as reinforcements would be slow at coming up due to keeping things hidden.
Hi Keysersoze,

Good to see you again.

Battle of Ardennes was fought both in the first and second World War
The 2nd War is generally referred to as 'The Battle of the Bulge'

I believe you refer to the first World War in which the French were
heavily outnumbered in an offensive on German forces.

While the studies of Military and War histories are important inasmuch as
providing insights into the mind of the commanders and how they thought and fought - it is also equally important to know that future wars may in no way resemble what happened in the past.

Coming to your point I do not think India can be outnumbered in any way by Pakistan if such factors are critical towards the achievement of the 'Objective'
Condor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 02:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
Super Moderator
Lt. Colonel
 
keysersoze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 507
Thanks: 1
Thanked 42 Times in 34 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

Dude I Am referring to the battle of the bulge where the German forces original plan was to strike toward Antwerp. It was a limited strike with a set force. Those are the parallels that I am making . It was not a case of "outnumbering" anyone. However Cold start is based upon there being a strike with forces in place. This would create a localised superiority which would be in place until reinforcements could be brought up. Since any unit movements would be spotted they would be a while in which any attacking forces could be stopped dead in their tracks.
keysersoze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 02:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
Super Moderator
Lt. Colonel
 
keysersoze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 507
Thanks: 1
Thanked 42 Times in 34 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

After dramatic failure of “Cold Start Strategy” India comes up with cockamamy “96 hour Rapid Thrust” (Pro-active War Strategy) scheme
Posted on December 31, 2009 by The Editors
5 Votes

Quantcast


Terrorism across the borders works for Bharat–in China, Sikkim Bhutan, Nepal, Lanka, and Pakistan. RAW is good at hiring and sending mercenaries to murder innocent civilians–as witnessed in Karachi last week.

* “No one should ever underestimate our capability and determination to foil any nefarious designs against the security of Pakistan,
* “None can dare rob us of nuclear arsenal”: General Hameed Gul
* After dramatic failure of “Cold Start Strategy” India comes up with cockamamy “96 hour Rapid Thrust” scheme
* India is behind Karachi blast: Imran Khan
* Proxy war in Afghanistan: Strategic depth vs Strategic clout.
* “This new doctrine along with the earlier restructuring of the Indian Command structure, particularly the operationalisation of South West Army Command (2005) has increased manifold threats to Pakistan. It has also enhanced Indian capacity for faster action, Prof. Khurshid Ahmad Jamat e Islami.
* Is Delhi preventing the 4th Battle of Panipat or instigating it?

But the war strategies in new NBC (Nuclear Biological, and Chemical—Pakistan’s as Nuclear power: 350 bombs) world don’t quiet seem to work for Delhi. The Hot War was a failure in the 90s during the reign of Zia Ul Haq. Then came the Hot Pursuit option which failed in Kashmir. Then foreign consultants were hired to invent the “Cold Start Strategy” (CSS). That didn’t quite work on various occasions. Nuclear deterrence & Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) blunts Bharat’s Cold Start Strategy. Bharat was unable to cross into Pakistani territory. Nukes: Don’t mess with us–Islamabad’s defiant rebuke to threats. Now the CSS has been reinvented and it is being called the “96-hour-Rapid-Thrust”. Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor’s ”new” strategy calls for rapid movement across Pakistani rivers, and have a “chota peg” in Lahore Gymkhana, before the Paksitanis can say “Allah Ho Akbar”. The new Bharati strategy works as follows:

1) Super human Bharatis will be thus able to move across heavily mined terrain under the watchful eye of more than 200,000 soliders and satellites–without detection or resistance.

2) Neither Pakistan radars, nor the AWACs nor the half a million eyeballs will be able to see these superhuman Bharatis as they waltz across the border. The Pakistani hawks in the sky: Y-89 AWACS

3) During the hours that it takes to mobilize the Indian Army, the Pakistanis will be asleep, and will not get distrubed by the noise and movement of entire tanks divisions across the border. Pakistani made UAVs: Uqaab & Jasoos

4) For 96 hours, Pakistan will not fire a single Hataf and Shaeen missiles at the advancing menace. Pakistani defense based on missile nuclear deterrent. Hatf, Shaheen, Ghauri, Babar and Abdali are far more advanced then previously thought

5) According the this cock and bull theory, as the Bharatis advance, the Pakistani Air Force, mad up of up F-16s, Mirages, and JF-17 Thunders will not strike at the slow moving tanks and artillery. PAF: Nuclear armed deterrent to hegemony

6) According the doctrine, the Rapid Force will be able to “pulverize” the Pakistanis, and “evaporate” the Pakistani tank divisions like clouds. Pakistan’s 500 Al-Khalid tanks have been in production since 2001. Next generation tanks exported via IDEAS. The tanks and artillery will simply disappear into thin air allowing the advancing Rapid Thrust Force to got to the Gymkhanas and have “chota pegs”.

7) According to the Kapoor song and dance–Neither the swamps or Sir Creek, nor the deserts of Rajistan, nor the mountains of Kashmir will be problem for the super human Rapid Force. Pakistan’s 250 JF-17s, 50 F-16: Indias panicky “concern”

THE Indian army is now revising its five-year-old doctrine to effectively meet the challenges of a possible ‘two-front war’ with Pakistan and China, deal with asymmetric and fourth-generation warfare, enhance strategic reach and joint operations with IAF and navy.

Work on the new war doctrine – to reflect the reconfiguration of threat perceptions and security challenges – is already underway under the aegis of Shimla-based Army Training Command, headed by Lt-General AS Lamba, said sources, reported Times of India on Wednesday.

It comes in the backdrop of the 1.13-million strong army having practised – through several wargames over the last five years – its ‘proactive’ war strategy to mobilise fast and strike hard to pulverise the enemy.

This ‘cold start strategy’, under a NBC (nuclear-chemical-biological) overhang, emerged from the `harsh lessons’ learnt during Operation Parakram, where it took army’s strike formations almost a month to mobilise at the `border launch-pads’ after the December 2001 terrorist attack on Indian Parliament.

This gave ample opportunity to Pakistan to shore up its defences as well as adequate time to the international community, primarily the US, to intervene. The lack of clear directives from the then Indian government only made matters worse.

“A major leap in our approach to conduct of operations (since then) has been the successful firming-up of the cold start strategy (to be able to go to war promptly),” said Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor, at a closed-door seminar on Tuesday.

The plan now is to launch self-contained and highly-mobile ‘battle groups’, with Russian-origin T-90S tanks and upgraded T-72 M1 tanks at their core, adequately backed by air cover and artillery fire assaults, for rapid thrusts into enemy territory within 96 hours. India plans to end the war decisively within the first 96 hours forcing the other sides into a fast submission of ceasefire.

Delhi’s Cold Start Strategy frozen DOA (Dead on Arrival)
keysersoze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 02:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
Major
 
Condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 421
Thanks: 61
Thanked 78 Times in 60 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
Dude I Am referring to the battle of the bulge where the German forces original plan was to strike toward Antwerp. It was a limited strike with a set force. Those are the parallels that I am making . It was not a case of "outnumbering" anyone. However Cold start is based upon there being a strike with forces in place. This would create a localised superiority which would be in place until reinforcements could be brought up. Since any unit movements would be spotted they would be a while in which any attacking forces could be stopped dead in their tracks.

In the mind of Indian planners and strategists, it is nothing like what you are thinking.
Condor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 02:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
Major
 
Condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 421
Thanks: 61
Thanked 78 Times in 60 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

Delhi’s Cold Start Strategy frozen DOA (Dead on Arrival)

Nope it is not - It is very much alive and kicking.

Don't be caught with your pants down.
Condor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 02:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
Super Moderator
Lt. Colonel
 
keysersoze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 507
Thanks: 1
Thanked 42 Times in 34 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condor View Post
In the mind of Indian planners and strategists, it is nothing like what you are thinking.
Then please enlighten us with your insight.I for one would love to hear what the Indian generals are thinking.


I might have created a misunderstanding by using simple posts through laziness. Go with the basic idea that I have a good knowledge of military history and understand most tactics. Explain what it is about......
keysersoze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 07:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
Senior Member
Major
 
Condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 421
Thanks: 61
Thanked 78 Times in 60 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
Then please enlighten us with your insight.I for one would love to hear what the Indian generals are thinking.


I might have created a misunderstanding by using simple posts through laziness. Go with the basic idea that I have a good knowledge of military history and understand most tactics. Explain what it is about......
Yes, not only you, also the Indian Generals wud be interested
to know if their most secret thoughts and War Plans have been
compromised.

But tell me one thing - why wud you approach the subject of survival
of something you hold so dear and precious, so casually as this?

You wouldn't wish to answer this one - never mind.

As for enlightment, let us take a slightly circuitous route
starting from an entirely different location. I hope you are
comfortable with this.

Have you see the Film, Ingluorius Basterds?
Condor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 07:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
Major
 
Condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 421
Thanks: 61
Thanked 78 Times in 60 Posts
Default Re: Pakistan War Games: Thwarting Indian Cold Start Strategy

Nice film na?

Starts on the farm of Monsieur La Padite, located on the beautiful
rolling French countryside. And the German jeep slowly driving up
the country road to his farmhouse.

Superbly played by Col Hans or whatever was the name of that
German Spy Chief. I really do believe he deserved an Oscar for
role - terrific!

Even a real life Spy Master couldn't have played it out so well - you'd agree, No?

Oh! before we proceed - have you seen the movie, yet?
Condor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 - Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.