Army to seek 20 SuperCobra helicopters from US

[Neo]

Army to seek 20 SuperCobra helicopters from US

By Amin Ahmed
Thursday, 31 Dec, 2009

Pakistan currently has 32 Cobra attack helicopters.—File photo

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army is likely to seek US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) to acquire 20 SuperCobra helicopters to reinforce its fleet of ageing Cobra attack helicopters, which are being extensively used in operations against terrorists in tribal regions.

According to the Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report published by the US State Department, the army envisions acquiring the SuperCobra helicopters. The helicopters alone, it said, would cost at least $500 million and the total acquisition would cost up to $1 billion.

The report says that SuperCobra attack helicopters will not be available for foreign customers till 2015. Equipping the army with such helicopters earlier than 2015 will require either increased production or their diversion from the US Marine Corps.

The report says that Pakistan is likely to maintain its current force of Cobra helicopters, supplemented by armed Bell 412 aircraft. Pakistan currently has 32 Cobra attack helicopters. The sustainability of the current fleet of the helicopters is difficult but possible through commercial channels.

However, the US government is currently spending $75 million from the Pakistan Counter-insurgency Funds to update a portion of the existing Cobra fleet.

Pakistan army has received two squadrons of Cobras since 1983, later upgraded with the ‘C-NITE thermal imaging’ package.

[Solid Beast]

total acquisition would cost up to $1 billion.

The report says that SuperCobra attack helicopters will not be available for foreign customers till 2015. Equipping the army with such helicopters earlier than 2015 will require either increased production or their diversion from the US Marine Corps.

Terrible choice, tactically and logistically unsound...another joke in the making. Would be better to go after Turkish option or at the very least Eurocopter Tigre.

[Solid Beast]

Had there been a domestic project started 10 years ago, the project would have probably been matured and ready by 2015. Didn't have to be anything fancy either, a civilian model and an armed model built in significant numbers would have been good enough. Could have also been a complete replica of the Cobra re calibrated for PA Aviation's needs.

[Araz]

Originally Posted by Solid Beast

Terrible choice, tactically and logistically unsound...another joke in the making. Would be better to go after Turkish option or at the very least Eurocopter Tigre.

It may have something to do with the time line of acquisition. I dont think ATAK 129 will be available to buy before 2018-20. The reason is their own needs. Ten there is the need for the platform to mature. You must also look at two other factors.
A. It is being acquired through FMS which may mean we dont have to fork out for it and may be able to use Counterinsurgency funds for it.
B. The numbers of 20 is neither here nor there. Which means we will play the same game of F16s.Good if it comes and no problem if it does not. Also its ability to carry armaments is secondary to none.
These may be factors influencing the choice. Plus we are reasonably used to the older cobras and therefore induction may go a lot more smoother.
Araz

[Araz]

Originally Posted by Solid Beast

Had there been a domestic project started 10 years ago, the project would have probably been matured and ready by 2015. Didn't have to be anything fancy either, a civilian model and an armed model built in significant numbers would have been good enough. Could have also been a complete replica of the Cobra re calibrated for PA Aviation's needs.

for the amount of units required and the skills needed to build a local industry, this would not be a wise decision. Considering that China is still struggling with Z10, where do you propose to get your know how from? USSR wont sell it to us, and uncle SAM you dont trust.I guess you could still go to Iran for the frames but what about the engines. Even Mangusta has taken yrs to develop.
So we dont have many options and I dont think it is financially viable.
Araz

[Solid Beast]

It may have something to do with the time line of acquisition. I dont think ATAK 129 will be available to buy before 2018-20. The reason is their own needs. Ten there is the need for the platform to mature.

That's fine I understand that the Turks have to fill up their own inventories first, however we don't know exactly when they will be available to us until a serious negotiation is intiatied. What is available right now is Eurocopter Tigre. We can just do a quick comparison of two very different platforms, one that is groundbreaking and the other which will be near retirement in 2015 (again spare parts issue).

AH-1 Super Cobra
General characteristics

* Crew: 2: pilot, CPG (co-pilot/gunner)
* Length: 44 ft 7 in (13.6 m)
* Rotor diameter: 48 ft (14.6 m)
* Height: 13 ft 5 in (4.1 m)
* Disc area: 530.83 ft² (168.1 m²)
* Empty weight: 10,920 lb (4,953 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 14,750 lb (6,690 kg)
* Powerplant: 2× General Electric T700 turboshaft, 1,680 shp (1,300 kW) each
* Rotor systems: 2 blades on main rotor, 2 blades on tail rotor

Performance

* Maximum speed: 190 knots (218 mph, 352 km/h)
* Range: 317 nmi (365 mi, 587 km)
* Service ceiling: 12,200 ft (3,720 m)
* Rate of climb: 1,620 ft/min (8.2 m/s)

Armament

* M197 3-barreled 20 mm "Gatling-style" cannon in the A/A49E-7 turret (750 rounds ammo capacity)
* 2.75 in (70 mm) Hydra 70 rockets - Mounted in LAU-68C/A (7 shot) or LAU-61D/A (19 shot) launchers
* 5 in (127 mm) Zuni rockets - 8 rockets in two 4-round LAU-10D/A launchers
* TOW Missiles - Up to 8 missiles mounted in two-missile launchers on each hardpoint
* AGM-114 Hellfire Missiles - Up to 8 missiles mounted in two 4-round M272 missile launchers, one on each outboard hardpoint
* AIM-9 Sidewinder Anti-Aircraft Missiles - 1 mounted on each outboard hardpoint (total of 2)

Eurocopter Tiger (HAP variant)

General characteristics

* Crew: 2 (pilot, weapon systems officer)
* Length: 14.08 m fuselage (46 ft 2 in)
* Rotor diameter: 13.00 m (42 ft 8 in)
* Height: 3.83 m (12 ft 7 in)
* Disc area: 133 m² (1,430 ft²)
* Empty weight: 3,060 kg (6,750 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 6,000 kg (13,000 lb)
* Internal fuel capacity: 1,080 kg (2,380 lb)
* Powerplant: 2× Rolls-Royce/Turbomeca/MTU MTR390 turboshafts, 873 kW (1,170 shp) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: 290 km/h with mast, 315 km/h without mast (157 knots, 181 mph with mast, 170 knots or 196 mph without mast)
* Range: 800 km (430 nm, 500 mi) combat (with external tanks in the inboard stations: 1300km)
* Service ceiling: 4,000 m (13,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 10.7 m/s (2,105 ft/min)

Armament

* Guns:
o 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30 cannon in chin turret

On its two inner hardpoints and two outer hardpoints the Eurocopter Tiger can carry a combination of the following weapons:

* on each of its two inner hardpoints:
o 2x 20 mm (0.787 in) machine cannons in a pod, or
o 22× 68 mm (2.68 in) SNEB unguided missiles in a pod, or
o 8x AGM-114 Hellfire laser guided missiles
* on each of its two outer hardpoints:
o 2× Mistral air-to-air missiles, or
o 12× 68 mm (2.68 in) SNEB unguided missiles in a pod

You must also look at two other factors.
A. It is being acquired through FMS which may mean we dont have to fork out for it and may be able to use Counterinsurgency funds for it.
B. The numbers of 20 is neither here nor there. Which means we will play the same game of F16s.Good if it comes and no problem if it does not. Also its ability to carry armaments is secondary to none.
These may be factors influencing the choice. Plus we are reasonably used to the older cobras and therefore induction may go a lot more smoother.
Araz

Playing the same game of F-16's doesn't sound good to me. In fact there were papers upon papers written by senior PAF officers vowing to not repeat mistakes of the past, some of which are available for reading. I'm not impressed by the F-16 game, and now that game which unnecessarily distracted the Air Force and caused major headaches will affect the Army? Being used to the older Cobra's and easy integration is a good point, however we can't let the same criteria keep us locked in these investments over and over. Counterinsurgency funds may not pertain to platforms like attack helicopters and are better utilized towards rebuilding infrastructure and smaller purchases. Something can also be worked out with the French as they have promised help through various means for this war. The AH-1 Super Cobra is a much higher maintenance bird than the Cobra we have. The Cobras we have also have had a very bumpy service history plagued with parts/maintenance issues, and we were dying for them to be upgraded and had to wait in line for years upon years. Now the army wants to repeat this process? Excuse me I have to go laugh this one off, the army can't be serious. Soft loans or hard loans, it doesn't make sense to me. These guys fall into the same trap over and over again. 10 years from now when parts become a huge issue what other platform will be left that is similar to the Cobra for us to beg for?

[Solid Beast]

Originally Posted by Araz

for the amount of units required and the skills needed to build a local industry, this would not be a wise decision. Considering that China is still struggling with Z10, where do you propose to get your know how from? USSR wont sell it to us, and uncle SAM you dont trust.I guess you could still go to Iran for the frames but what about the engines. Even Mangusta has taken yrs to develop.
So we dont have many options and I dont think it is financially viable.
Araz

A nation that was successful in a domestic nuclear weapons program should discourage itself from producing helicopters? China is struggling with Z-10 only with respects to engine (and that also is near completion) but you overlook Z-9. They also started on the Z-10 project not too long ago. Iran has reverse engineered Cobra as you point out. We don't need the know-how from anyone but China can help a lot. Do you think its financially viable to shift out billions to the U.S. to acquire a small amount of very necessary equipment that always runs into spare parts and political problems? We aren't even allowed to upgrade and customize U.S. platforms without explicit approval. Now that the U.S. is propping up India to counter China, we have been lumped into the Chinese camp, it's too dangerous to rely on the U.S. this heavily any longer for military hardware until we can politically become very stable partners again.

[Araz]

Originally Posted by Solid Beast

A nation that was successful in a domestic nuclear weapons program should discourage itself from producing helicopters? China is struggling with Z-10 only with respects to engine (and that also is near completion) but you overlook Z-9. They also started on the Z-10 project not too long ago. Iran has reverse engineered Cobra as you point out. We don't need the know-how from anyone but China can help a lot. Do you think its financially viable to shift out billions to the U.S. to acquire a small amount of very necessary equipment that always runs into spare parts and political problems? We aren't even allowed to upgrade and customize U.S. platforms without explicit approval. Now that the U.S. is propping up India to counter China, we have been lumped into the Chinese camp, it's too dangerous to rely on the U.S. this heavily any longer for military hardware until we can politically become very stable partners again.

With all due respects , Pakistan's industrial base is so infantile it would be unthinkable to start a project as complicated as that now. South Africa could not sustain the Rooviak for financial reasons, why do you think would Pakistan be successful. You just do not have the know how , the metallurgical an composite tech base to embark on a venture as complicated as this. Plus how many numbers do we need that we should invest Billions which we dont have for a project like this. Perhaps in 2decades when our aviation industry has moved on , we may venture there , but certainly not now.
Regards
Araz