Pakistan to arm fighter jets with Chinese missiles

[sonicboom]

Pakistan to arm fighter jets with Chinese missiles

BEIJING: Pakistan has confirmed that it will buy Chinese missiles and flight systems to equip its 250 JF-17 Thunder jet fighters as it seeks to deepen military cooperation with Beijing, state media said on Thursday.

Pakistan Air Force Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, told the Global Times newspaper that Chinese radar systems and SD-10 mid-range homing missiles would be used on the fighter jets co-developed by the two nations.

“PAF has no plans to install Western devices and weapons on the aircraft for the time being,” the newspaper quoted Suleman as saying.

Pakistan may also buy up to four Chinese surface-to-air missiles, as it seeks stronger cooperation with China to help upgrade its armed forces, Suleman told the China Daily in a separate interview. He made the remarks on the sidelines of the annual Zhuhai Air Show under way in southern China.

Chinese defence experts played down the comments, saying any cooperation did not target any country and did not compare with deals adopted during a visit to India this month by the US President Barack Obama, the China Daily said.

Among the deals struck during Obama’s trip was a preliminary accord worth $4.1 billion for India’s air force to buy ten C-17 transport aircrafts from US aviation authority.

Pakistan had initially planned on arming its JF-17 fighters with missiles made by French firm Thales SA in a deal reportedly worth $1.6 billion.

But French officials confirmed to AFP in April, that the deal had been put on hold without explanation. The French daily Le Monde reported that it was cancelled to avoid damaging relations with Pakistan’s nuclear rival India. China is a strong ally of Pakistan and Islamabad draws heavily on Beijing for its defence and infrastructure needs. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

[keysersoze]

SO no French purchase and no indian order...bet the French feel stupid now....

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

SO no French purchase and no indian order...bet the French feel stupid now....

The French with their $2 trillion plus economy, feeling stupid?

And this will be because?

[keysersoze]

Hmmm been keeping abreast of the french civil unrest? Most of that trillion dollar economy is propping up huge social budgets that no one wants to reform. ANd if no one is doing business with you that trillion dollar economy is going to shrink.


Billion dollar orders will always trump "possible orders" they have a habit of shooting themsleves in the foot and losing out big time. They lost the Saudi deal by being too cocky
They lost the Turkish deal by passing a pointless law and losing a multi billion dollar order.
They lost a 1.5 Billion order (not to mention another multi billion dollar order that was in the offing) by not selling to PAK

Enough for you?

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Hmmm been keeping abreast of the french civil unrest? Most of that trillion dollar economy is propping up huge social budgets that no one wants to reform. ANd if no one is doing business with you that trillion dollar economy is going to shrink.

Yes, Europe in general has to come to terms with the fact that the cradle to grave state support and socialism may no longer be sustainable.

That has nothing to do with no one wanting to do business with them. That is simply not true.

Billion dollar orders will always trump "possible orders" they have a habit of shooting themsleves in the foot and losing out big time. They lost the Saudi deal by being too cocky
They lost the Turkish deal by passing a pointless law and losing a multi billion dollar order.
They lost a 1.5 Billion order (not to mention another multi billion dollar order that was in the offing) by not selling to PAK

They don't seem to be complaining. They probably know what is good for them better than you! Don't you think so?

French are still doing pretty well with defense deals overall. They are the fourth largest arms exporters still AFAIK. It is always up to them to decide to whom to sell and at what terms. Same way it is for the buyer to decide if those terms are acceptable or not.

Why sulk if the deal doesn't work?

Enough for you?

Keep 'em coming.

[keysersoze]

Well I would keep em coming but you seem to have ignored the major points of my first reply. The French are not generally regarded by anyone as being the first port of call.I could cite several examples over the years.They are the people you go to when no one else will sell. Unfortunately for them the Chinese have started to export (Along with a few other countries) As well as the return of the Russians. So people don't feel the need to be screwed over by them. I will post a few articles in respect to the French arms industry being in the doldrums since the cold war.

As for the comment regards to suppliers setting the price I wonder if you feel the same about the ole GORSHKOV deal, Or does that only apply to countries other than India? The fourth largest exporter rating includes military aid so is not indicative of sales.

As for the French not complaining' Have you met any French people? Noticed how the RAFALE is being bounced from every contract out there? And how the French air force had to cut back numbers? (4.5 billion euros)

I could go on and on but the following articles will make it easier.....

[keysersoze]

What is Wrong with Rafale?
Posted by Robert Wall at 4/17/2009 3:44 AM CDT

It’s a question with no clear answer. But it’s a question that keeps coming up as the Dassault multi-role fighter fails to secure an export buyer.

And it has to be asked again, now that the Indian government has kicked the Dassault strike fighter out of its MMRCA competition – early, before even the flight evaluation, when the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35, and Saab Gripen have been left in the running.

What’s more, the French contractor was left in the dark over what was coming, with Dassault officials indicating they were surprised, even skeptical their dismissal could be true.

On the face of it, there’s no reason why Rafale has been such a dog in competitions. France remains the only customer and the Rafale the only western fighter available for export without a foreign customer to its name.

Even in countries when Rafale was close to securing a buyer, such as Morocco, the deal didn’t close. The country instead opted for F-16s.

It’s not for lack of government support, either. French president Nicolas Sarkozy has been acting as the chief salesman for his country’s aerospace and defense industry, securing a submarine deal in Brazil, Airbus sales to Libya, and not missed an opportunity during a recent tour to the Middle East to tout industry products. In fact, after losing out to the F-16 in Morocco, Paris stepped up its support for aerospace and defense exports.

And there’s also nothing obviously wrong with Rafale from a technical standpoint. The aircraft performance is sound – certainly with no obvious deficiencies when compared to rivals – the avionics suite is at a modern standard with good systems integration, and reliability problems, which existed early on, appear to have been ironed out.

blog post photo

The Rafale can even claim to have earned its combat credentials, having deployed to Afghanistan and dropped bombs. While it was a limited engagement – relying on others to provide laser targeting as it dropped LGBs – having a war record is something competitors like the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen can’t claim.

Moreover, in some respects the Rafale has clearer upgrade strategy than others. An active electronically scanned radar system is in development, and several other upgrades are in the works. Similarly, the aircraft can already carry a range of air-to-air and precision air-to-ground weapons, with more on the horizon.

The Indian situation is somewhat special, certainly. Dassault, for a long time, was pushing the Mirage 2000 and, at one point, basically offered the entire production line to India. Dassault thought it had the deal locked up, but New Delhi was slow to finalize terms and eventually opened the bidding up to others. Frustrated and annoyed at India’s decision, Dassault shuttered the Mirage 2000 line and took that aircraft off the table, leaving only Rafale to offer.

That said, the Indian decision is a big set-back for Dassault, if for no other reason than the size of the program with at least 126 aircraft to be ordered.

But it is not the final word for Rafale in the export realm, either. The fighter remains in the running in competitions in Brazil and in Switzerland, although Bern has delayed an announcement until at least 2010.

There are several other locations where Dassault is hoping it can secure a Rafale sale, such as Libya, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates. And while at this point any success would be welcome, those aren’t real competitions, so a contract would come with money, but no bragging rights.

What is Wrong with Rafale?

[keysersoze]

ANKARA: French companies hurt by strained ties

Today's Zaman, Turkey
May 23 2009


French companies hurt by strained ties


French companies continue to get hurt by French President Nicolas
Sarkozy's `poke in the eye' approach with Turkey as relations turn for
the worse with Ankara over increasingly vocal and fierce French
opposition to Turkey's full membership in the EU.

`I had no idea this many French companies have been operating in
Turkey,' said a cab driver shaking his head. Ã-zgür
Batı, 29, the son of a retired iron and steel worker from
Ä°skenderun, says he was irked by the French rebuff against
Turkey. `I would rather go and buy an Italian-made Fiat car rather
than the French-built Renault and Citroën,' he stated while
cruising down the streets of Ankara to make a living.

In recent years, anti-French sentiment seems to have gained traction
and Batı's feelings are shared by many in Turkey, with e-mail
circulating with lists of French companies and products to boycott.

French companies continue to be battered by French President Nicolas
Sarkozy's `poke in the eye' approach to Turkey as relations with
Ankara turn for the worse over increasingly vocal and fierce French
opposition to Turkey's full membership in the EU. In a move that might
be construed as retaliatory measures in response to Sarkozy's
overtures, Today's Zaman has learned that Turkish officials are now
working on a stick-and-carrot approach and drafting a list of policies
and actions to stem French obstructions while conveying a tough
message to French corporations interested in doing business in Turkey
and adjacent regions.

French firms continue to be battered by Sarkozy's `poke in the eye'
approach to Turkey

The latest victim was France's energy heavyweight Gaz de France (***),
which was denied entry to the 7.9 billion euro Nabucco pipeline
project over Turkish objections last year. The 3,300-kilometer-long
Nabucco pipeline will carry Caspian natural gas to Central Europe via
Turkey and aims to reduce Europe's dependence on Russian gas. In a
phone interview with Today's Zaman, a Paris-based *** official said
the company had no interest in Nabucco. Turkish energy officials beg
to differ. One government official told Today's Zaman that *** was at
first very interested in taking part in the Nabucco project because of
its large profit potential. Because of the French parliament's stance
on Armenian genocide claims, Turkey blacklisted *** during
negotiations. The company was not listed in the agreement signed in
Prague earlier this month. The blacklisting sent tremors across the
board among 768 French companies registered to do business in
Turkey. France is the
number one country utilizing nuclear power in electricity generation
in continental Europe and one of the leading countries in nuclear
energy technology in the world.

Two French power companies, Vinci Construction Grand Projets and
Suez-Tractebel showed interest in nuclear power tenders in Turkey last
year and purchased bid specifications. However, after rumors that
their bids would be rejected and that the government would effectively
block their entry, they did not submit their price offers in the
tender. French nuclear giant Areva had also announced its interest in
the construction of power plants in both the Akkuyu and Sinop
provinces.

The aftershock is not limited to the geographic landscape of Turkey as
Ankara is also reaching out to neighboring countries and privately
relaying its concerns on French involvement in multimillion-dollar
projects. Earlier in May, a joint venture between Turkey's TAV and the
Athens-based Consolidated Contractors Company won a $1.17 billion
contract to expand the main airport in Muscat, Oman, pushing aside
French competitor Vinci. ***'s recent expansion in Azerbaijan met with
local resistance after Ankara expressed uneasiness over deals *** was
trying to advance in the energy-rich Caspian Sea nation.

In addition to the energy and construction industries, French
companies also took a beating in defense tenders. Even though France's
Eurocopter was the top contender in the shortlist of the Turkish
military's attack helicopter tender in 2006, it was vetoed and Italian
AgustaWestland was awarded the $1.5 billion deal instead. Nationalist
Movement Party (MHP) deputy and retired Gen. KürÅ?at
Atılgan told Today's Zaman that the blockage of French
companies from defense tenders has continued.

Worst time for France
The duel between Turkey and Sarkozy's France could not come at a worse
time. The hope for French companies in Turkey and in the wider region,
where Turkey plays an active role, seems to be fading faster than the
decline in France's gross domestic product (GDP), which fell 1.2
percent on a quarter-to-quarter basis in the first three months of the
year -- the third-worst figures on record since 1968.

With the French economy in recession since last year, contracting 3.2
percent in the first quarter of 2009 -- the fastest drop since 1949 --
along with falling investment and exports, any tender won abroad might
give a glimmer of hope to French corporations and may help compensate
for low demand at home.

The trade volume between the two countries has also plunged sharply,
with imports from France declining 43.7 percent in the January-March
period compared to the same period last year and exports dropping 35
percent over the same period. The negative news, partly blamed on the
world economic crisis, is particularly worrisome for Paris because
France is registering a clear surplus in bilateral trade. In contrast,
however, a comparison between Turkey's January-March figures and those
of the first quarter of last year shows that Turkey achieved a 76.7
percent increase in exports to Iraq, a 107.1 percent to Egypt, a 70.9
percent to Algeria, 33.3 percent to Syria and 50.8 percent to Libya.

Economic retaliation against French companies is nothing new. In 2001,
following France's recognition of the World War I-era killings of
Armenians as genocide, Turkey excluded French companies from defense
contracts. Ankara cancelled a $259 million satellite contract with
Alcatel and blocked French state-owned arms maker GIAT, the maker of
Leclerc tanks, from a tank modernization tender worth some $7.1
billion. A road tender valued at $1.44 billion was cancelled because
the foreign partners of the participating consortia were
French. Ankara also blocked French companies from a grain tender.

Despite everything, some French companies still successful
The deterioration of relations with France started in 2006, when
France passed a bill making it a crime to deny that the mass killings
of Armenians under Ottoman rule during World War I constituted
genocide, a claim Turkey strongly rejects.

Yet Ankara at times resorted to a stick-and-carrot policy and provided
incentives to French companies as well in a move to show what could be
gained should France drop its objections to Turkey's EU candidacy. ***
Suez was awarded the $232 million tender for Ä°zgaz, Turkey's
third-largest distributor of natural gas, in 2008 by the municipality
of Ä°zmit following a privatization bid.

Ä°zgaz owns and operates a 2,900-kilometer gas distribution
network in the Kocaeli region, one of Turkey's most industrialized,
and has 200,000 residential customers. *** Suez posted record growth
in the first quarter of this year thanks primarily to growing sales in
Turkey, which amounted to $20 million euros. *** Suez and Turkish
engineering firm Mimag-Samko signed a memorandum of understanding last
year to develop, build and operate a thermal power plant in Turkey
with an installed capacity of between 800 and 1,300 megawatts. The
total investment in the project is estimated to be more than $1.5
billion.

Similarly, last year a Turkish-French consortium, Cengiz
Ä°nÅ?aat-Makyol-DoÄ?u&# xC5;?
Ä°nÅ?aat-Vinci, offered the lowest bid in a tender for the
construction of an immersed auto tunnel project that is to connect the
European and Asian sides of Ä°stanbul.

Despite this, however, French companies continue to fall short of the
performance recorded by Italians, who have moved quickly to capitalize
on friendly relations with Turkey over the last decade. While the
trade volume between France and Turkey stands at $10 billion, Italy
and Turkey posted $19 billion in trade volume last year. What is more,
Italian companies have moved to the top of the list in winning public
tenders in Turkey.



23 May 2009, Saturday
ABDULLAH BOZKURT ANKARA

[keysersoze]

Turkey Blacklists MBDA Over Missile Dispute
By UMIT ENGINSOY and BURAK EGE BEKDIL
Published: 26 October 2009
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ANKARA - Turkey's procurement authorities have blacklisted European missile developer and manufacturer MBDA, Paris, over a legal dispute concerning a now-defunct deal for 20,000 anti-tank missiles worth nearly 404 million euros ($604.3 million).

"We told them [MBDA] that we would not consider any new business with them before the dispute has been settled in a satisfactory way," said Murad Bayar, Turkey's chief procurement official.

Turkey has two air defense programs. U.S., Russian and Chinese companies are competing for the long- and medium-range anti-missile air defense deal, worth billions of dollars. Several international companies are eyeing the less expensive short-range program, including Thales with its Crotale missile.

An initial arbitration court ruling provided Turkey with some compensation, which Bayar described as fair.

"At this stage of the dispute, we have been reimbursed for most of our financial damages," Bayar said. "I think that was a fair verdict."

But Bayar said MBDA has appealed that ruling to a federal court in Switzerland on procedural grounds.

An MBDA spokesman said the company knows nothing about a blacklist.

"MBDA does not have any information of this nature [about a blacklisting] from the client," a company spokesman said.

Regarding the appeal, the spokesman said, "We are not authorized to comment on ongoing procedures."

It was an exceptional step for a procurement office to decide to exclude a company from competitions, an analyst said.

"It's highly unusual," said Nick Witney, senior research fellow at think tank European Council for Foreign Relations in Paris. "In practice, a dispute in one area could have a bearing on other bids from the same company, but to go beyond that to a formal blacklist is extremely unusual."

A second analyst said blacklist actions are rare but they do occur. In the present case, perhaps there was a political reason for keeping MBDA out of the Turkish market. Jean-Pierre Maluny, deputy director of think tank Institut de Relations Internationales et Stratégiques, said, "Relations between France and Turkey are not very good."

Turkey has resented a French bill on Armenian genocide and, more recently, France's opposition to its joining the European Union.

The dispute initially was taken to the Geneva-based International Court of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce, where Turkey demanded a reimbursement of 160 million euros. Turkey said it had paid 280 million euros for 3,700 missiles delivered by MBDA, but Ankara claimed those missiles were worth only 120 million euros, according to Bayar. Turkey canceled the program in 2004, citing major delays in deliveries and subsequent operational losses.

The court ruled the annulment legally valid, Bayar said. MBDA also claimed its investment in a production plant in Turkey should be deducted from the reimbursement, he said.

The court has partly agreed with that demand and finally ruled that MBDA must pay back 74 million euros for compensation and 35 million euros in interest to be accrued for the late payment, Bayar said.

The court's verdict has not been made public.

Bayar said that his office, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), which has been challenging MBDA, would like to have an amicable solution, but without a settlement, MBDA bids on Turkish procurement programs would not be welcomed.

"[For that reason] MBDA has failed to participate in the competition for [the purchase] of air defense systems," Bayar said.

Under the troubled anti-tank missiles program, the Turkish Defense Ministry and Aerospatiale, assets of which were folded into MBDA, signed a contract in 1998 worth about 404 million euros to replace the Turkish Land Forces' outdated 3.5-inch rocket launchers and RPG-7s seized from outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party terrorists.

The deal aimed to allow Turkey to build nearly 20,000 Eryx missiles and 1,600 launchers under license from MBDA over 10 years.

Eryx is a short-range portable wire-guided anti-tank missile used by several forces, including the Canadian Forces, French and Norwegian armies. The weapon can also be used against bunkers and pillboxes and can bring down low-flying helicopters.

Turkey in the past had blacklisted some countries, including Norway, Switzerland, France and South Africa, for political reasons, not allowing companies from those nations to participate in its weapon modernization tenders. The last incident came in 2006 against Swiss aircraft maker Pilatus because one local Swiss canton had recognized the Armenian genocide. ■

-- Staff Writer Pierre Tran contributed to this report from Paris.

[keysersoze]

France Loses Out as Saudis Sign $2.2 Billion Deal for Russian Helos (Updated)


(Source: defense-aerospace.com; published Oct. 30, 2007)


(Edited Nov. 2 to add Eurocopter denial after paragraph 4)



By Giovanni de Briganti

PARIS --- In an abrupt policy shift, Saudi Arabia has signed an agreement to buy over 150 Russian-made Mi-35 Hind and Mi-17 Hip helicopters worth over $2.2 billion, ending French hopes of sealing a long-delayed sale of 148 helicopters and raising doubts about future French arms sales to the Saudi kingdom.

Sources say the Memorandum of Understanding with Russia was signed in Ryad in mid-September by members of the private cabinet of Saudi King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud, and follows extended visits to Russia by Saudi military delegations in February and March 2007 to appraise the capabilities of Russian helicopters and other weapons.

The sources also said that Saudi Arabia appears to have decided to buy T-90 main battle tanks and medium-range air-defense systems from Russia, replacing previous plans to buy French-made Leclerc tanks and Aster 30 SAMP/T air-defense systems. No agreement has yet been signed for these systems, however.

Eurocopter confirmed that Saudi Arabia has opted for Russian helicopters, but said the company’s future prospects in the country remained unclear.

[Eurocopter denied Nov. 2 that the company had confirmed the agreement, to which it is not a party and of which it has not been officially notified.]

Nexter, manufacturer of the Leclerc tank, and missile maker MBDA had no comment on the status of their dealings with Saudi Arabia.

While conceding that the Saudis had signed an agreement to buy Russian utility helicopters, a French official told defense-aerospace.com that the Mi-17 and Mi-35 met only part of the Saudi requirement. Noting that the two Saudi customers – the Armed Forces and the National Guard - would not necessarily buy the same equipment, he said that France was still in the running to sell several other helicopter types. These include naval, Combat Search And Rescue and training helicopters, he implied, for which Russian helicopters are unsuited.

Saudi Arabia’s decision to retain Russia as a major arms supplier is the result of two recent policy decisions made by King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud. One was Abdallah’s decision to take direct control of major arms purchases, which were previously largely the domain of the defense and aviation ministry headed by Prince Sultan Bin Abdulaziz, the Saudi Crown Prince and deputy prime minister who is also Abdallah’s half-brother. Sultan is said to be out of favor.

Abdallah also is loosening arms ties with France because of its insistence on large, multiple-system packages, and its stubborn arm-twisting to include weapons that the Saudis do not want, like the Rafale combat aircraft, in these packages.

While the Saudis were willing as late as the fall of 2006 to sign two or three medium-sized helicopters deals, covering 42 Fennec light helicopters, 20 Cougar Combat Search and Rescue helicopters and 10 NFH-90 naval helicopters, sources say they indefinitely postponed these plans after French officials continued to insist that the package also include Rafales, several FREMM frigates and Gowind corvettes, and Leclerc tanks.

“The idea of selling comprehensive packages was pushed by the Elysée [the French President’s office-Ed.] as a final coup for [former President Jacques] Chirac,” one industry official told defense-aerospace.com. “Now, Chirac’s gone, we’ve signed nothing, and we’re shut out of the Saudi market for the foreseeable future. A real success for France,” the official said.

France has now conceded it will not sell Rafale to Saudi Arabia. “We haven’t discussed Rafale in Saudi Arabia. It’s not a current issue,” French Defense Minister Hervé Morin said Oct. 28 in Jeddah, after talks with Saudi leaders.

[France is hoping that Libya, which has contracted to upgrade its obsolete Dassault Mirage F-1 fighters, may also agree to buy the Rafale, and an agreement could be announced during Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi’s forthcoming visit to Paris, possibly in December.]

The Saudis are also said to be unhappy with what they perceive as French snubs. These include the French government’s failure to appoint an official of sufficiently high rank to head Sofresa, the arms export agency especially set up to handle contracts with Saudi Arabia. France’s use of local marketing networks that include individuals that are “persona non grata” at King Abdallah’s court is seen as another snub.

France’s insistence on stuffing as many weapons as possible into arms deals has also been cited as one of the reasons why Morocco finally opted to buy the U.S.-made F-16 fighter instead of the Rafale, which Paris wanted to supply in a single package together with helicopters and corvettes.

Another factor is that the election in May of Nicolas Sarkozy to succeed Chirac as French president has not gone down well with the Saudis, who take exception at his declarations that French diplomacy would in future distance itself from its traditional pro-Arab stance.

The loss of the Saudi contracts, whose total value was estimated at well over 7 billion euros, is a severe loss for French industry, which is encountering growing difficulties in exporting its weapons in the face of cut-throat competition from the United States and Russia.

Paris is now making a last-ditch attempt to salvage at least some Saudi deals, and President Sarkozy’s planned visit to Saudi Arabia, in January, might constitute such an opportunity. The sale of several Airbus tanker aircraft, and possibly of a reconnaissance satellite which Saudi Arabia would share with Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, are two possibilities.

The sale of Fennec light helicopters, which the Saudis need for pilot training, may finally go through simply because there is no direct Russian competitor, sources say, noting however that this sale is only worth about 300 million euros.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/87615/france-loses-out-as-saudis-sign-$2.2-billion-deal-for-russian-helos-%3Ci%3E%28updated%29%3C%C2%A7i%3E.html