Is Pakistan's JF-17 a Thunder or Blunder ?

[sonicboom]

Is Pakistan's JF-17 a Thunder or Blunder ?

Jul 8, 2010

Pakistan has witnessed new defense acquisitions in this decade than any other, and in the center of it all is the new fighter which was designed by China with partial funding from Pakistan. It is formally known as JF-17 Thunder. When the fighter was in development, Pakistani online communities were jumping with excitement comparing it with it’s arch rival India’s modern combatants Su-30MKI, Mig-29S & Mirage-2000H. There were claims of it featuring western Radars and long range missiles & Chinese ordering some due to its superior capabilities.

But the reality is far from it- China having spent significant amount of money into a fighter which it is never going to use most probably forced Pakistan to accept its avionics to offset some of its development costs.

Chinese who are known for their self reliance first and quality next, are further downgrading JF-17s capabilities with their poorly copy-pirated avionics. Along with their dubious weapons, any chance of JF-17 maintaining BVR edge over its adversary’s front-line combatants, for the most part, is unlikely.

Even in close combat JF-17 lacks what it takes to win the fight. Its wings bearing resemblance to a fighter which china knows inside out, the J-7, doesn’t have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. Its performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot indeed.

It has a Maximum G loading of only 8, as claimed by PAC. Its thrust to weight ratio is another negative point. When it’s arch rival, the IAF, was overtly critical and severely blasted HAL’s Tejas for having a low thrust to weight ratio, maybe they should have compared it with JF-17 which has even less, even with Emergency thrust.

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex(PAC) proudly displays the RD-93’s “Combat thrust with afterburner“ as 19,200lbf, while the whole defence community knows RD-93’s thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with it’s new re-designed Sea wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov.

However, Klimov’s RD-33 series 3(whose avatar is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes) has a provision for emergency thrust which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf(~19200lbf) in their official released document. They further state that as “Take-off emergency mode”. So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine’s lifespan.

This is a far cry from PAC's “Combat thrust“ claim. Why this is being stated is because, the engines(bought by the Chinese after pressurizing the Russians) are the only non-chinese & non-pakistani component, and even there they have lied about its capabilities. Hence the true -lower than published- specifications of Chinese and Pakistani components are open to any one’s guess. In any case, the close combat capabilities of JF-17 is below average or average at best.

The next Achilles heal is JF-17’s speed. For a good interception, speed is an important criteria. However JF-17’s max speed is Mach 1.6 which is claimed by PAC. This indicates that JF-17 is draggier. When compared, their F-7’s has higher speed of mach 2+ with a lower thrust engine. The IAF fighters which it is going to face, all have speeds greater than the Thunder.

So why is Pakistan still inducting more and more of this fighter, which its critics increasingly call it Junk Fighter – 17 ? The answer may lie with Pakistan’s recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their airforce, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded.

The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India’s pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their ridiculously high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s.

In those circumstances, “Never again” was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self reliance. The result of that project is the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistans still ordering 250 planes.

Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don’t even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why...? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about.

This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won’t be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.

JF-17 would have been the best fighter and a sensible decision in the absence of J-10, but now its reason for existence is as obsolete as the fighter itself. This writer would rather have an upgraded a Mig-23MLD than a JF-17 any day.

[Neo]

What a load of crap!

[vinod2070]

Is Pakistan's JF-17 a Thunder or Blunder ?

A blunder. A mighty one!

[Interceptor]

That article represents the perceptions casted by fools with wet dreams its utter one sided and littered with assumptions. Who compared the JF-17 with Su-30MKI, Mig-29S & Mirage-2000H?? For that matter lets include the Raffle, Euro Fighter and F-22 it can easily claim them too! This is fabricated has ACM ever compared the JF-17 with any of the above but we did hear comparisons with F-16 and the HAL Tejas. JF-17 has enormous potential and in forthcoming future we are likely to see a new avionics package and probably new jets engine some modifications to the body. So where is it lacking in ability how can one justify it is lacking when it is in service with PAF a world renowned air force who accommodates fighter pilots from all over the world. We dont fly dinky planes that fall to pieces like the Mig 21(flying coffin) of Indian Air force PAF prides itself for its excellent record. The JF-17 is going to be Pakistan’s backbone fighter jet so I would leave the wet dream of having built a blunder and accept the reality that Pakistan is becoming self-reliant in every field.



Vinod follow link Military fighter airplanes: Russia fears competition from China....

[vinod2070]

Well, there are far too many articles on both sides of the fence. There is no hard data available on the plane's performance at this point. So all judgments are based on gut feel more than unbiased facts.

I think the article makes several good points. That the Chinese have not inducted the plane does point to something. China is not yet in a league where they produce something just for exports (that too with imported engines!).

You may chose to ignore all the issues raised by the article. I would like to see technical rebuttals before deciding one way or the other.

[keysersoze]

Well i would disagree about the the both side having equal play as there are not that many articles that espouse the above theory. But the points remain ......It is flying......It is free from sanction or interference........And it is capable otherwise why would the Russians be worried and cancel engine orders for fear of sales being lost.......Oh and the PAF tends to get what it needs and would not go for something just to salve national ego. They get products with what they need.

[Neo]

I think the JF-17 is simply brilliant. The concept of combining years of experience and expertise by PAF with western fighter jets with Chinese manufacturers resulted in a medium technology and low maintenance 4th generation aircraft which is now being considered a threat by Russia for her Mig-29 class fighters.

Whereas other nations are trying to re-invent the wheel to build modern fighter jets, China and Pakistan actually stunned the world with the Thunder.

The experience PAC and 500+ Pakistani engineers gained from this project have made up for decades of lost time and opportunity. We're a nation that will soon be putting a world class fighter jet on the market.

Blunder?
No, just sour grapes...

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Well i would disagree about the the both side having equal play as there are not that many articles that espouse the above theory. But the points remain ......It is flying......It is free from sanction or interference........And it is capable otherwise why would the Russians be worried and cancel engine orders for fear of sales being lost.......Oh and the PAF tends to get what it needs and would not go for something just to salve national ego. They get products with what they need.

Triumph of hope over wisdom!

JF-17 has just made you dependent of China instead of USA. You may see China as not prone to sanctioning you and that may well be true to an extent, as long as you do her bidding without question.

They can force your hand when they want to, like they forced Musharraf into the LM operation.

This is even more of a one sided relationship than you have with USA.

[vinod2070]

Originally Posted by Neo

I think the JF-17 is simply brilliant. The concept of combining years of experience and expertise by PAF with western fighter jets with Chinese manufacturers resulted in a medium technology and low maintenance 4th generation aircraft which is now being considered a threat by Russia for her Mig-29 class fighters.

Russia is just wary of the Chinese stealing and copying her technology left and right and justifiably so.

Comparing an unproven plane to Mig-29!

Any verdict on its performance and "low maintenance" should await some hard data, not so soon.

Whereas other nations are trying to re-invent the wheel to build modern fighter jets, China and Pakistan actually stunned the world with the Thunder.

I don't seen anyone stunned. It is a mid level Chinese plane that China is itself not inducting.

The experience PAC and 500+ Pakistani engineers gained from this project have made up for decades of lost time and opportunity. We're a nation that will soon be putting a world class fighter jet on the market.

How? Do you have an indigenous plane development program or you would consider a Chinese plane as your own?

Blunder?
No, just sour grapes...

Sour grapes! Just because you are manufacturing under license a Chinese plane. India has been manufacturing fighter planes since the sixties, starting with the "Saber killer" Gnats.

[Mastankhan]

Hi,

Look at it this way----just because we chose not to have a plane to combat SU 30 mano amano and came up with something that we feel good about----that doesnot mean that our enemy will save us the grace---.

With the procurement of the jf 17---the paf has thrown its own curve ball in the middle of the game---everyone was expecting something that would match the su 30 to some extent but the paf has chosen its own path---deviated from the norm and taken another dive into the unknown.

It has changed the predictable playing field one more time---in whose favour---only time can tell---but the indians were not expecting what we got and neither were some of the pakistanis.

Does it tilt the playing field in favour of paf---I doubt it very much---the su 30 is too much of an aircraft---india has one too many----then there are other aircraft equally capable as the jf 17---.

The paf for sure has its work cut out for it.

Once you are in the catchup game----you can never make up for the lost time---that has been the fatal vision of the paf---a belief that they had that they could---the JF 17 is a great product in its category---but it is almost ten years too late---.

Major defence purchases can never be delayed at any cost---you sell your soul---you take on the devil---you kiss someone's feet---when you pucker up your lips---you suck in deep and don't let go.